Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 19

Author Topic: Realistic Mining Suggestion  (Read 30088 times)

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Realistic Mining Suggestion
« on: September 15, 2008, 09:26:44 pm »

Moria was not built Overnight!
Realistic mining would change one of the fundamental principles of Dwarf Fortress ; that you're eating through solid rock like a mole!
At the moment, smoothing stone is a lot slower than actually mining out the space to be smoothed!

When improvements to the world generation, the introduction of soil and the ability to progress and survive in the outdoors without mining at all took place, we need to make mining itself harder, just as we need to make outdoor farming harder.
The fortress should be the culmination of a long well-played game, not a birthright carved out and trapped in the first year!

Code for cave ins and supports for different kinds of material is requested. A tunnel through sand should be very hard (if not impossible) to maintain. Creating supports could be made similar to smoothing, but would require wood.

Pockets of methane and carbon dioxide and seepage of the same into mined tunnels should be implemented. This would perferably only happen in the proximity of coal.
The effects could spread like miasma, and could seep from pockets of gas through mountain into tunnels like aquified water is currently implemented(albeit with a limited source).
The effects of this gas could be akin to drowning when immersed in water. The effects would perferably be invisible at first and cause winding, unconsciousness and death as the ratio of the deadly gas to air is increaced.
Methane should also be easily flammable and cause horrific explosions when exposed to an open flame or a spark. This can be implemented in a lighting mod, which could provide illumination in the form of torches or lanterns.

Real mining practices like setting fires to heat and soften the rock before mining it should be implemented. Mining should be slowed down considerably. Mining through soil shouldn't be barely twice as fast as mining through rock.

Mining should give rise to all the waste material the space contained in the form of dirt or gravel.
One could discard dirt and gravel by packing them into new, solid spaces, or taking them off-map for dumping.
Implementing the hauling suggestion in the form of lifts, carts, rail, stacking and animals of burden would also be a requirement.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2008, 09:40:10 pm by Dwaref »
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Draco18s

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #1 on: September 15, 2008, 09:43:53 pm »

I don't mind making it slower, to some extent, provided that materials can be acquired by other means.  I am not in favor of creating slag/gravel that needs to be hauled out as a waste product.  Currently every item the game tracks has at least one use, typically two or three (although some, such as lye are mostly dead ends due to the non-implementation of a feature).  The only exception I know of is Chunks, which eventually rot and disappear.  Gravel and other waste stone (or sawdust in wood 2.0) accumulate over time with no discernible use, and never go away.
Logged

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #2 on: September 15, 2008, 10:15:19 pm »

You missed where i said 'landfill'.
If we make trash into just another square, it should be easier to keep track of.
One could designate a square to be 'packed', whereupon a stack of gravel[7] is made to create a gravel square.
If the square is re-mined it'd drop that exact amount of gravel that was used to pack it.
The individual items would disappear from the memory like as if the items were chasmed.
This would probably require effective stacking in order to pull off though, as requested in the hauling suggestion.
Also check out the off-map dumping suggestion. If we just had those wheelbarrows, this stuff is not far off.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Tiler

  • Bay Watcher
  • [ODOR_LEVEL:999]
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #3 on: September 15, 2008, 10:16:51 pm »

I agree with Draco. While realistic, it's just an annoyance for a player and would amount to pointless busy work.

I like the overall idea, though. Mining an underground fortress is very impractical for a lot of reasons, and it should really only be a feat attempted by people who can be prepared to deal with a lot of headaches in exchange to a virtually impregnable defense.
Logged

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #4 on: September 15, 2008, 10:36:35 pm »

I agree that with the current hauling, watching 7 dwarves haul a unit of 'gravel' per square mined would be awfully boring. But say that the time it takes to mine a square is increased by ten times, then it won't all be about hauling gravel, but revert to more like the current hauling rocks job.
We don't even need to haul rocks, we can just let them lie there and take up memory. I think the current situation is a lot less stable than finding a final way to dispose of mining residue.
After all, no matter how much of anything there is in a square(apart from water), it doesn't really matter. Dwarves do not move slower through it, it is never barred from movement, and standing in it does not impede work speed.
The game does not really encourage us to keep it tidy.

To be honest, i think that cutting rock to use as a crafting material should be another designation than 'mine'. But it works pretty good as it stands currently.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Impaler[WrG]

  • Bay Watcher
  • Khazad Project Leader
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2008, 10:52:20 pm »

Uses can be found for rubble, most castle walls were build with cores of rubble with only facings of cut stone, more then half the walls mass would be rubble.  Of course much would just become a pile and thats quite natural.
Logged
Khazad the Isometric Fortress Engine
Extract forts from DF, load and save them to file and view them in full 3D

Khazad Home Thread
Khazad v0.0.5 Download

Draco18s

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 11:18:12 pm »

You missed where i said 'landfill'.
If we make trash into just another square, it should be easier to keep track of.
One could designate a square to be 'packed', whereupon a stack of gravel[7] is made to create a gravel square.

Because that's Fun.  Mhm.  Lots and lots of Fun.  More like Tedious Busy Work.
Logged

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 11:28:21 pm »

Because that's Fun.  Mhm.  Lots and lots of Fun.  More like Tedious Busy Work.
For a guy who added saw dust, mud, soil erosion, blood splatter etc i rely on toady to apprechiate these suggestions for me.
I want that stuff in, and making it work properly and without too much friction is not too far off.
Just need to get around the hauling and container bit, and you'll see it gets fun.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Neoskel

  • Bay Watcher
  • Read or the owl will eat you.
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2008, 12:55:21 am »

Sawdust? Where? I see no sawdust.
Logged
Urist Mcsurvivalist has been accosted by edible vermin lately.

Goblins: The fourth iron ore.

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2008, 01:28:04 am »

Sawdust? Where? I see no sawdust.

Gravel and other waste stone (or sawdust in wood 2.0) accumulate over time with no discernible use, and never go away.

Supposedly there once was, i guess.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Draco18s

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 02:03:16 am »

Gravel and other waste stone (or sawdust in wood 2.0) accumulate over time with no discernible use, and never go away.

Supposedly there once was, i guess.

No.
Wood 2.0 was a suggestion thread on how to turn tree trunks into about 8 different kinds of wood material ranging from wooden discs about 3 inches thick, to planks, to 2x4s to sawdust to round logs.

Yes, the crazy attention to detail is nice sometimes, but not when it comes to item tracking.  If a dwarf has to pick it up and carry it somewhere it should have a USE (as I said, the only two items that can't be used for SOMETHING are soap and chunks).  I do not want to see gravel/rock slag, sawdust, wood rounds, or bio waste.
Logged

Dwaref

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 03:53:07 am »

A complete revamp of the core mechanic is suggested because currently i find mining to be too easy, to the point of being ridiculous. Same reason for the suggestion that farming needs to be made harder, which you placed a vote on.

Getting gravel out of the mine shaft should be on par with the usefulness of weeding the field.
Neither are really required, but you can't really call mining 'mining' and farming 'farming' until it becomes a little bit more like the thing. DF is decisively low-fantasy. No magic, gritty as hell etc ; and i thus don't think that we should streamline and simplify anything any further than we have to just to make it work.
Logged
He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

Proteus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2008, 04:10:31 am »

It is a good idea, but it shouldn´t be implemented until we have a better system of transporting stones and other things (via mine carts and the like, so that not every dwarf has to walk back and forth for every stone or payload of gravel)
Logged

Muz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2008, 04:33:44 am »

I suggest one solution to all this:
Lighting

That should solve all the easy mining problems. Now your dwarves will have to carry a torch, candle or lantern to start mining and build indoor stuff, and you'll be busy making fuel, which'll hinder underground living and exploratory mining.

It's planned anyway, and will hurt the frame rate and annoy people less than adding pollution.
Logged
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

TheDeadlyShoe

  • Bay Watcher
  • Blog not found
    • View Profile
Re: Realistic Mining Suggestion
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2008, 05:07:39 am »

Leftover stone is already a big enough PITA that people exploit so they can stack it all in one square... is this really not enough?

Mining might be too fast but that's something you don't need to add game mechanics to fiddle with.

Logged
Lord have mercy and let me not throw up in this space helmet.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 19