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Author Topic: Steep learning curves that are worth it  (Read 19435 times)

Sowelu

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #90 on: June 27, 2008, 04:55:38 am »

Pirates make the worst opponents in the game.  They are very fond of building JUST offshore of your land bases, because the game doesn't let land bases claim water territory.  Very cheap when the computer does it...also, pirate bases are worthless to capture, because the faction gets so many bonuses to ocean bases only when they control them.

My favorite faction is probably Miriam, or the Cyborgs if I feel cheap.  Sometimes University.
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Dryn

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #91 on: June 27, 2008, 05:08:10 am »

Recently I have discovered Crusader Kings (I was referred to it by someone one these forums, I think.). Grand Strategy set in the 'Crusader Kings' period, 1066 to around 1400.

Starting out it looks fairly simple but there is a lot going on 'under the hood'. Most of which is unknown to you since the manual and tooltips are terrible and out of date. I recommend reading the forums - I did this and it really helped my gameplay.

It can get a bit silly (Help! The Seljuks are invading Norway again!) so it might offend anyone with a refined sense of history. It isn't as polished as the other Paradox Interactive games but far more fun. In particular I like the fact that you are mostly playing a dynasty. This means that who you marry and how you raise your kids is just as important, if not more so, as that next captured territory.
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Kagus

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #92 on: June 27, 2008, 04:25:06 pm »

Funny thing is, Norway is currently being "invaded" by Pakistani immigrants. 


Okay, so they're not exactly what one might call Seljuks...  But all's fair in love and jokes.

Mercanthyr

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #93 on: June 30, 2008, 01:54:56 am »

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lumin:
<STRONG>Instead we get kiddie crap like Sid Meyer's Pirates.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'd agree if Pirates! wasn't a great game.

If you want a naval/trading experience that is very satisfying then try patrician 3 and its successor Port Royale 2. The intricacies of the trading system make it a very rewarding game. The ship combat is not that great, I usually just autocalc, but it doesn't take away from the game's other strong suits. In Patrician 3, you can send mercenary armies to raid cities as well as hire pirates. In Port Royale 2, I haven't had as much time to play with its features yet, but I believe the pirating system is better and I think you not only have the ability to raid towns, but to take them over completely which you couldn't do in patrician 3. Patrician 3 takes place in Hanseatic Northern Europe (Baltic Sea). Port Royale 2 takes place in the Caribbean.
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Draco18s

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #94 on: June 30, 2008, 02:15:49 am »

Jumping in WAY late on this, but I figured I'd add my 2c.

For me, strategy games are the way to go.  Pretty much everyone has heard of the Civilization series, which doesn't have a steep learning curve but is at least harder than most games to master.  Also, another great game (which I personally like more than Civilization) is the Space Empires series.  Space Empires V is the newest and a great game.  Takes a while to get used to it and really get yourself into the groove, but once you do you'll be wiping out your enemies in the furious light of their own star, ignited by your newly researched star destroying component.  Or wipe them out with a series of plague bombardments, convert their star into a black hole, land invasion parties, etc... Whatever you're most comfortable with.

The SE games for me were so complicated and detailed with such a level of micromanagement that I became unable to play without nearly ever minister turned on.  The only thing I could do better was design ships, research new tech, and explore systems (SEV explore AI sucked balls, but I usually let it do it's thing anyway, as I didn't care enough to eck out those last two turns worth).  I also did the politicing, even though I was probably terrible at it.  I tried to make alliances with everyone because I hated combat on a tactical level, even though I was much better than the AI for the most part (for example, I once had the AI crush half of my own fleet with a baseship, oddly even though the baseship itself was essentially derelict and missing most of my other ships I still won the fight.  I did have to quick-build and quick-fly a repair vessel in to fix the damage the AI caused (the baseship was SUPPOSED to have enough sheilds to tank anything as it had 3000 sheilds and could regen them all in 6 seconds, followed up by 10,000 points of organic armor which ALSO repaired itself) and then had 4 repair bays to take care of the rest of the fleet--however, colliding with 5 cruisers did a number on it, I think there was only a couple of inner-level components left: life support, crew quarters...had no movement, no shields, and no armor to speak of and I still managed to get a repair vessel in before my weakened fleet deep in enemy territory was attacked).

TL;DR:  I dislike most of the SE series games in a number of aspects, but love tech, building ships, and duking it out, but games take too long (I actually won an SE3 game by conquest once: took me three months) and there are vital aspects to the game I don't enjoy doing.

I don't know if it's learning curve is step enough for you but Wizardry 8 is great too, Wizardry 7 is even better.

One of these days I'll get a group through 6, 7, and then 8 just to have done the whole trilogy (yes, all three are linked, story wise) but 6 is just too hard as a game (not learning curve wise either).  7 also annoyed the crap out of me when I played as I could never figure out what the F*ck I was supposed to be doing and frequently ended up in places where the monsters were too hard to kill.  This happens in 6 as well, and only one place in 8, as the monsters outside the monastery are leveled for your return trip from Arnika, not your outbound one.

Oh, I also played about 6/10ths of the way through Wizardry 1.  That was a b**ch.  You played that game one room at a time: in, back, in back, in back, kill, in back, in kill, run to town, raise/recruit, in back in back....
(A room I define as a singular location, as it was tile-like and there was no inbetween anythings, if you ventured four tiles in before you saw a monster you were f***ed).


Galactic Civilization...
I remember playing the game.  I don't remember a damn thing and I don't have it anymore.  All I remember is building a ship or two and...nothing.  I must have been so disappointed by the real game play that I up and uninstalled it within an hour of installing it.

Civ 4 likewise didn't challenge me, I played 3 games on increasing difficulty (I think) and always beat the clock for building a rocket ship (by at least a turn) and was always stomping all over my enemies with massively advanced tech (one game featured a climatic battle between my Apache Helicopters and....feudal Japanese Samurai...)
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 02:28:46 am by Draco18s »
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Keldon

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #95 on: June 30, 2008, 02:18:47 pm »

Yeah GalCiv2 sucked in my opinion, just reinstalled it with the latest expansion <which has nice personalized tech trees for each race> but after a few hours it bored me to tears. just started dominion 3, it seems very nice, really complex while still being simple, i love the fact you have no control over battles once they start and the whole making a god system is amazing!
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Zemat

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #96 on: June 30, 2008, 02:52:44 pm »

I just have to chime in again to praise what in my opinion is the best strategy game ever.

Master of Magic...

Yeah, yeah. It started as a rip-off of civilization and it's full of game-crashing bugs and game-breaking balance problems (including extremely lame AI opponents). But it's so full of original details and concepts it's worth at least a minor praise. Also, since I played it first before civilization I could never get into civilization at all (even civ4 which I own) since I always find it lacking in comparison.

Things I like about MOM.
- Races: each race it's almost unique in every aspect. Each race had a unique combination of buildings and units that, even if shared with a couple of other races, got unique race bonuses. A unit of draconian spearmen is as different of a group of troll spearmen as their are different from hafling spearmen. Not to mention the overpowered dark-elf spearmen. In comparison, Civ's civilizations are all the same except for some minor bonuses and an unique unit per civ.

- Magic: The ability of customizing your own wizard and his/her spellbooks gave so much personality to your kingdom that, along with choosing a race and having unique summonable units tied to your brand of magic, gave each time you played a totally different experience. Unlike civ where, (with the exception of mods) once you play with any civ, you have played with all of them.

- Heroes: Each hero and magic item you found could totally change the way a game could turn. They sometimes where too powerful and could break the game. But this also brings it's own kind of awesome.

To bad MOM2 never came and probably will never will.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 02:54:44 pm by Zemat »
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Sowelu

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #97 on: June 30, 2008, 04:16:54 pm »

Oh man, Master of Magic was an absolutely AWESOME game.  I never got hit too hard by the bugs...but the balance issues really are atrocious.  It's horrifically unbalanced, there's some strategies that are completely unfair, the difficulty -within- each game oscillates madly, some things just don't even make sense, but damn if it isn't a lot of fun anyway.

That is a game that really needs some next-gen love.  I would LOVE to see an Alpha Centauri take on it.  (Okay, so that's two generations past MoM, whatever.)

Edit: WHOA WHOA WHOA WAIT WAIT BACK THE TRAIN UP

http://www.masterofmagic2.com/ WHAT

WHAT

"It’s a turn-based game with tactical combat which is also turn-based. One could describe it as part Master of Magic, part Populous and part X-Com." WHAAAT

"2009 release date; public beta next year" (posted in 2007) WHAT WHAT WHAT

IN DEVELOPMENT BY STARDOCK, IE, GALCIV2

WHAT

Edit edit:  Apparently they had a falling-out with Atari who owns the rights.  Which, from what I can gather, means "That game we've been making?  For the last couple years?  NOOOooooo, it's not a sequel!  Our game is called Master of Wagic!  2!"

(now I just want an official Erfworld game, AGAIN.)

But uh, lest you fear that it went nowhere and fell apart, here's a post from one of the main Stardock people:

kryo Wrote:
On Jun 19, 2008
"We are working on a fantasy 4x strategy game, but it is not a MoM sequel. We haven't yet announced the name."

Yeah...eleven days ago.  Sounds like they never stopped developing, and are still on track.  And there's multiplayer.

WOW.

DO.  WANT.  HOLY WOW.  I thought the next two games I was gonna buy were going to be Starcraft 2 and Diablo 3, in spite of myself...I'm not a huge fan but it's impossible to not buy those.  Now I see, however, that there's a third game I'm going to by:  Whatever THIS is.

Last edit: OH MY GOD. Read this interview. These guys apparently think they're the new Bullfrog.  Their MMO on page 3 is amazing me.  And they're talking about Archon and Battle Chess and Loom.  And they were trying to get actual rights to X-Com, too.  I HAVE A NEW GOD.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 04:50:23 pm by Sowelu »
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Kagus

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #98 on: June 30, 2008, 06:47:40 pm »

Diablo III I won't stop you from getting, but I ask that you hesitate before purchasing Starcraft II...  Looking at the videos on YouTube, I am most certainly not impressed.  Just look both ways before crossing the street.

Sowelu

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #99 on: June 30, 2008, 06:48:46 pm »

Pff, I'm just getting it for the plot.
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Ioric Kittencuddler

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #100 on: June 30, 2008, 06:49:52 pm »

Diablo III I won't stop you from getting, but I ask that you hesitate before purchasing Starcraft II...  Looking at the videos on YouTube, I am most certainly not impressed.  Just look both ways before crossing the street.

I saw the announcement video, what others are there?
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Torak

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #101 on: June 30, 2008, 07:02:29 pm »

Also, one game that hasnt been mentioned yet but most everyone knows, Dominions.


Great, great, great game. Hard as hell to actually win though.
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Kagus

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #102 on: June 30, 2008, 07:08:27 pm »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30MBljXxg3M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etS9a-HOFbI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmJ9IbnrpAg


It may look cool, but lean back a bit and think about what the actual game experience would be like, how it would "feel".

Dryn

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #103 on: June 30, 2008, 07:25:49 pm »

Reading that interview that Sowelu posted, it seems that Brad has the right idea about things. (Especially his comments on MOO3.)

I am going to try out some of those Civ mods linked in that Masterofmagic.com site and perhaps check out Age of Wonders.
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Kagus

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Re: Steep learning curves that are worth it
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2008, 07:29:03 pm »

Age of Wonders is a beauty...  I consider it to this day to be one of the greatest games I have ever played.

But I say that mostly for the atmosphere and the story.  What little actual gaming I did was grand fun, but I don't know enough about it to really say how good it is in comparison to other games...


Ignore the later installments.  Go for the original Age of Wonders.  Just play the demo, see if it manages to enchant you as it did me.
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