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[Antioch]

MY main problem is I haven't really figured out when I should try to clear out any of the branches. My best char yet(a MiFi of the Shining One) just got murdered by an alligator in the swamp(granted, this WAS after taking out Nessos, a swamp dragon, a black mamba, and a vampire mosquito)

To elaborate, I managed to run Nessos out of arrows, and he happened to blink next to me, so I wasted him, then blinked to the stairs to heal up, then managed to stair dance the dragon to isolate him and destroy him. At this point I'm just about out of good healing items, so I probably should have gone back to the dungeon(I had cleared out the lair by this point) and taken on the orc mines for the guaranteed shops, but I decided if I took it slow I could atleast clear the second floor of the swamp this was taking place on. Que getting surrounded by the black mamba, mosquito, and alligator. I take out the mosquito and mamba no problem, but the alligator finishes me off

Alligators are hardcore, a lot stronger than you might expect.

My current branch order is usually something like this:

dungeon-lair-orc(if orc 4 is hard some more dungeon), some more dungeon, elf (I have started doing elf a lot earlier with casters as with the right spells and caution you can safely clear elf while the loot is substantial) OR swamp/snake/shoals/spider, then vaults top levels,crypt,hall of blades more dungeon, vault bot, abyss, slime, zot, tomb (if prepared), hell/pan (not sure which to do first, both have challenging bosses).

[Graven]

Antioch's progression is how I run, too. Just... just don't go in the Hall of Blades. Ever. You can thank me later.

All in all, the idea is that you enter a branch, and whenever you start encountering stuff specifically dangerous to your character, leave and go do another branch. Of course this expects you to be quite aware of the possible dangers and the strengths and weaknesses of your current character, but it's the best way to guarantee a fluid progression through the branches, maximising experience and item gains.

But yeah, the Lair branches can be hardcore - for Swamp specifically alligators are melee murdermachines, Vampire Mosquitoes can be a pain, hydras and Swamp Dragons all around, not to mention a ton of uniques tend to spawn in the Swamp for some demented reason. Be really careful if you get the lava ending for Snake, too - Salamanders can happily do upwards of 100 damage in a bolt of fire if you don't have rF.

The general difficulty [for me] goes Swamp -> Snake ->-> Shoals ->->->->-> Spider, with Swamp being the easiest. Spider is proper bollocks unless you have a ton of AC, and screw that place in general. Snake does have Lamia, but hey, nobody's perfect.

Elf can be really easy if you play carefully and can do a lot of single target DPS. Just dig a squiggly tunnel around the entrance to the Elf:3 vault such as that you can only see a single enemy at a time, and you're golden.

[UristMcDwarf]

Does anyone ever worship the curse god? Is he any good?

[TripJack]

My main problem is that I still haven't figured out any build orders, ie what to train and when.

In general:  offensive skills come first, dead enemies can't damage you . Defenses i.e. armor, shields, dodging, translocations, stealth etc. are all secondary and depend on your character type. Fighting is useful for all chars obviously, but HP also depends on experience level so fighting doesn't really give good returns until later in the game. Traps need to be up to 10 or 12 before the Vaults/late Dungeon if you want to avoid a stupid Zot trap deaths.

[DJ]

Do you guys train one skill at a time or many at once? Lately I've been running some Vampire Assassins, and I do just stealth until I hit 10, then I do dodging and short blades to 10, and then a level or two of stabbing and then more stealth. The problem is that I might get into a real fight while training stealth and die quickly due to low EV. However, if I train all three in parallel, I can barely sneak up on anything because my stealth isn't sufficiently ahead of your average monster's senses. I run into similar issues with casters, regarding spell school training vs dodging.

[TripJack]

usually one at a time early on, sometimes two later

[DJ]

So what's your typical training order? Any start would be helpful, I'm just trying to get a general feel for how far apart my skill levels should be.

[TripJack]

Well for the char (MiBe) that I just won with I went something like: Axes 20 (giving min attack delay for my battleaxe) -> Armour 15 -> Axes 26 (got an executioner's axe, need 26 skill for min delay) -> Fighting 15/Traps 12 -> Fighting 20/Armour 20 -> Dodging 20 -> Fighting 27 -> Armor/Dodging 27. Pretty straightforward build for a pretty straightforward character type.

I randomly trained a little (~10) evocations skill in there too, to give my wands & demonology rod a little extra power.

[DJ]

Whoa, so you train the main skill all the way before doing secondary? I need to try that.

[TripJack]

Well as I mentioned before, in crawl the best defense really is a good offense. For an entirely melee focused character, a strong offense means reducing your attack speed to the minimum ASAP. Also means taking a strong 2-handed weapon over a weaker 1-hander + shield 

[Graven]

Finally, after 5 stupid end-game deaths! My seventh win and third 15-rune one!

Code: [Select]

Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup version 0.13-a0-3133-gec0fa00 (tiles) character file.

11860616 Gravenous the Bringer of Law (level 27, 200/200 HPs)
             Began as a Gargoyle Gladiator on Sept 28, 2013.
             Was the Champion of Zin.
             Escaped with the Orb
             ... and 15 runes!
             
             The game lasted 04:40:16 (137231 turns).

Gravenous the Bringer of Law (Gargoyle Gladiator) Turns: 137231, Time: 04:40:16

HP 200/200       AC 72     Str 32      XL: 27
MP  45/45        EV  7     Int 14      God: Zin [******]
Gold 8161        SH  0     Dex 13      Spells:  6 memorised, 12 levels left

Res.Fire  : + + +   See Invis. : +   o - +9 great mace (holy)
Res.Cold  : + + .   Warding    : .   J - +12 gold dragon armour
Life Prot.: + . .   Conserve   : .   (no shield)
Res.Poison: +       Res.Corr.  : +   W - +2 spiked helmet {Int+3}
Res.Elec. : +       Clarity    : .   v - +2 cloak {MR+}
Sust.Abil.: . .     Spirit.Shd : .   f - +1 pair of gloves "Giareot" {Str+3 Int-1 S
Res.Mut.  : .       Stasis     : .   Z - +0 pair of boots of the Kettle-Drum {rF++}
Res.Rott. : +       Flight     : +   H - amulet of resist corrosion
Saprovore : . . .                    e - ring "Qozul" {+Fly rC+ Dam+6 SInv}
                                     a - ring "Daint" {Dex+3 Dam+7}

@: flying, reciting, very resistant to hostile enchantments, extremely
unstealthy
A: large and strong wings, fangs 1, talons 2, life protection 1, electricity
resistance, slow metabolism 1, unbreathing, petrification resistance, AC +20
a: Stop Flying, Recite, Vitalisation, Imprison, Sanctuary, Renounce Religion
}: 15/15 runes: decaying, serpentine, slimy, silver, golden, iron, obsidian,
icy, bone, abyssal, demonic, glowing, magical, fiery, dark


You escaped.
You worshipped Zin.
Zin was exalted by your worship.
You were full.

You visited 18 branches of the dungeon, and saw 107 of its levels.
You visited Pandemonium 2 times, and saw 25 of its levels.
You visited the Abyss 4 times.
You visited 1 bazaar.
You also visited: Bailey.

You collected 15351 gold pieces.
You spent 4305 gold pieces at shops.
You donated 2905 gold pieces.

Inventory:

Hand weapons
 c - the cursed +9,+9 Staff of Wucad Mu
   (You found it on level 7 of Tartarus)   
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 g - the cursed +6,+6 Sword of Cerebov {flame}
   (You took it off Cerebov in Pandemonium)   
   
   It emits flame when wielded, causing extra injury to most foes and up to
   double damage against particularly susceptible opponents. Big, fiery blades
   are also staple armaments of hydra-hunters.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
   
   Zin opposes the use of such an evil item.
 o - a +9,+9 great mace of holy wrath (weapon)
 x - the cursed +7,+7 Sceptre of Asmodeus
   (You took it off Asmodeus on level 7 of Gehenna)   
   It has a curse placed upon it.
   
   Zin opposes the use of such an evil item.
 D - a cursed +2,+4 quick blade of distortion
 L - the cursed +4,+8 shillelagh "Devastator"
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 P - the cursed -1,+4 dagger "Morg" (quivered) {pain, MR+ Int+5}
   (You found it on level 6 of the Pits of Slime)   
   
   In the hands of one skilled in necromantic magic, it inflicts extra damage
   on living creatures.
   
   It affects your intelligence (+5).
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
   
   Zin opposes the use of such an evil item.
 U - the cursed +4,+4 Staff of Dispater
   (You took it off Dispater on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   It has a curse placed upon it.
   
   Zin opposes the use of such an evil item.
Armour
 f - the +1 pair of gloves "Giareot" (worn) {Str+3 Int-1 SInv}
   (You took it off Nikola on level 18 of the Dungeon)   
   
   It affects your strength (+3).
   It affects your intelligence (-1).
   It enhances your eyesight.
 q - the cursed +0 plate armour "Xipetzal" {Dex+4, unknown}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   It affects your dexterity (+4).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 v - a +2 cloak of magic resistance (worn)
 I - the cursed +2 mottled dragon armour of Negligence {rC+ Stlth--, unknown}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Tomb of the Ancients)   
   
   It protects you from cold.
   It makes you much less stealthy.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 J - a +12 gold dragon armour (worn)
 W - a +2 spiked helmet of intelligence (worn)
 Y - the cursed +5 faerie dragon armour {SInv}
   (You took it off the Enchantress on level 5 of the Enchanted Forest)   
   
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 Z - the +0 pair of boots of the Kettle-Drum (worn) {rF++}
   (You acquired it on level 3 of the Snake Pit)   
   
   It greatly protects you from fire.
Magical devices
 b - a wand of digging (10)
 k - a wand of lightning (6)
 t - a wand of heal wounds (9)
 y - a wand of teleportation (9)
 K - a wand of disintegration (5)
 S - a wand of teleportation (6)
Comestibles
 s - 4 bread rations
 A - 4 meat rations
Jewellery
 a - the ring "Daint" (left hand) {Dex+3 Dam+7}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of slaying]
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+7).
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
 e - the ring "Qozul" (right hand) {+Fly rC+ Dam+6 SInv}
   (You bought it in a shop on level 2 of the Orcish Mines)   
   
   [ring of slaying]
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+6).
   It protects you from cold.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It lets you fly.
 i - the cursed ring "Phog" {Regen Dex+3 Int+2}
   (You found it on level 7 of Gehenna)   
   
   [ring of regeneration]
   It affects your intelligence (+2).
   It affects your dexterity (+3).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 m - the cursed ring "Elueph" {cTele +Rage MR+}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [ring of teleport control]
   It affects your resistance to hostile enchantments.
   It lets you go berserk.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 r - a cursed amulet of stasis
 w - a cursed ring of protection from magic
 z - the cursed ring "Poobeb" {Hunger- rF+ rC+}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [ring of sustenance]
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from cold.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 B - the cursed ring of Xom's Flight of Fancy {rPois Str+5}
   (You found it on level 7 of the Iron City of Dis)   
   
   [ring of poison resistance]
   It affects your strength (+5).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 C - the cursed ring of Greaboin {rF+ rN+ AC+4 Dex-3 SInv}
   (You found it on level 3 of the Elven Halls)   
   
   [ring of protection]
   It affects your AC (+4).
   It affects your dexterity (-3).
   It protects you from fire.
   It protects you from negative energy.
   It enhances your eyesight.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 E - the cursed ring of Pnahenua {Dex+5 Acc+2 SInv}
   (You acquired it on level 21 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of see invisible]
   It affects your dexterity (+5).
   It affects your accuracy (+2).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 G - the cursed ring of Pnaduin {+/*Tele Dex+2 Int+3}
   (You found it on level 5 of the Vaults)   
   
   [ring of teleportation]
   It affects your intelligence (+3).
   It affects your dexterity (+2).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 H - an amulet of resist corrosion (around neck)
 R - the cursed ring "Facur" {Wiz rElec Acc+5}
   (You found it on level 22 of the Dungeon)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   It affects your accuracy (+5).
   It insulates you from electricity.
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 T - a cursed ring of sustain abilities
 V - the cursed ring "Adui" {Wiz Dex-2 Dam+2}
   (You found it in Pandemonium)   
   
   [ring of wizardry]
   It affects your dexterity (-2).
   It affects your damage-dealing abilities (+2).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
 X - the cursed amulet of Relativism {rMut Dex+1 Acc+3}
   (You found it on level 7 of Tartarus)   
   
   [amulet of resist mutation]
   It affects your dexterity (+1).
   It affects your accuracy (+3).
   It has a curse placed upon it.
Potions
 d - a potion of berserk rage
 l - a potion of invisibility
 n - 2 potions of agility
 u - a potion of might
 N - 6 potions of magic
 Q - 8 potions of curing
Books
 j - a book of Power   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Iskenderun's Mystic Blast          Conjuration                  4
   Venom Bolt                         Conjuration/Poison           5
   Bolt of Magma                      Conjuration/Fire/Earth       5
   Fulminant Prism                    Conjuration/Hexes            5
   Iron Shot                          Conjuration/Earth            6
   Orb of Destruction                 Conjuration                  7
 F - a book of the Dragon   
   
   Spells                             Type                      Level
   Flight                             Charms/Air                   3
   Cause Fear                         Hexes                        4
   Bolt of Fire                       Conjuration/Fire             6
   Dragon Form                        Transmutation                7
   Summon Dragon                      Summoning                    9
Orbs of Power
 p - the Orb of Zot
Miscellaneous
 h - the horn of Geryon


   Skills:
 O Level 27 Fighting
 - Level 20,0 Maces & Flails
 - Level 2,0 Throwing
 + Level 26,1 Armour
 - Level 2,4 Dodging
 - Level 3,5 Spellcasting
 O Level 27 Charms
 O Level 27 Translocations
 O Level 27 Invocations


You had 12 spell levels left.
You knew the following spells:

 Your Spells              Type           Power        Failure   Level  Hunger
a - Repel Missiles        Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          2    ##.....
b - Swiftness             Chrm/Air       #####.....   1%          2    ##.....
c - Spectral Weapon       Hex/Chrm       #####...     2%          3    ###....
d - Haste                 Chrm           ######..     1%          6    #######
e - Apportation           Tloc           ######....   0%          1    #......
f - Controlled Blink      Tloc           N/A          4%          7    #######


Dungeon Overview and Level Annotations

Branches:
Dungeon (27/27)            Temple (1/1) D:7             Orc (4/4) D:10
    Elf (3/3) Orc:4          Lair (8/8) D:12          Swamp (5/5) Lair:3
  Snake (5/5) Lair:4        Slime (6/6) Lair:7       Vaults (5/5) D:20
  Blade (1/1) Vaults:4       Tomb (3/3) Forest:3        Dis (7/7) Hell
    Geh (7/7) Hell            Coc (7/7) Hell            Tar (7/7) Hell
    Zot (5/5) D:27         Forest (5/5) Vaults:2   

Altars:
Ashenzari
Cheibriados
Elyvilon
Fedhas
Kikubaaqudgha
Makhleb
Nemelex Xobeh
Sif Muna
Trog
Vehumet
Xom
Yredelemnul
Zin
the Shining One
Beogh
Jiyva

Shops:
D:8 [   D:12 (   D:14 /   D:15 %   D:17 /   D:20 /   D:21 +   Orc:2 =(=   Orc:4 ((%![[   Vaults:2 ++[
Vaults:3 [*   Vaults:4 [+*(   Vaults:5 !%!?%%!!(

Portals:
Hell: D:21 D:22 D:23 D:24 D:25 D:26 D:27
Abyss: D:22 D:24 D:25
Pandemonium: D:21 D:24

Annotations:
D:15 exclusion: Roxanne, Roxanne
D:20 Mennas
Lair:2 exclusion: oklob plant


Innate Abilities, Weirdness & Mutations

You are resistant to torment.
You are immune to poison.
You can fly continuously.
Your stone body is very resilient (AC +20).
Your wings are large and strong.
You have very sharp teeth.
You have razor-sharp toenails.
You resist negative energy.
You are resistant to electric shocks.
You have a slow metabolism.
You can survive without breathing.
You are immune to petrification.


Message History

There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
There's no-one here to preach to!
You see here 21 stones.
A red devil comes into view. It is wielding a runed trident.
The red devil picks up an orcish dagger.
The red devil throws an orcish dagger. The orcish dagger hits you!
The red devil picks up an orcish dagger.
You see here 21 stones.
The red devil throws an orcish dagger. The orcish dagger hits you!
You see here an orcish dagger.
There is a staircase leading out of the dungeon here.
Use which ability? (? or * to list)
You clear your throat and prepare to recite Anathema 14:62.
"What of the servants of Hell? Condemned for their..."
The red devil is turned into a pillar of salt by the wrath of Zin!
You kill the red devil!
You hear a splash.
"...sacrilege they shall be! Zin will condemn them again..."
You have escaped!

You clear your throat and prepare to recite Anathema 14:62.
"What of the servants of Hell? Condemned for their..."
The red devil is turned into a pillar of salt by the wrath of Zin!
You kill the red devil!
You hear a splash.
"...sacrilege they shall be! Zin will condemn them again..."
You have escaped!

This was the most fun 15-rune win I've had yet. Zin is amazing. Check out how amazing:



That's how amazing Zin is.

Now let me talk a bit more seriously.

This was initially meant to be a no-casting 5-rune win, which is the reason I have all that strength. However, at some point around Vaults:5 I didn't really have anything decent to train, so I decided - eh, why not Charms, what could possibly go wrong?

And to be frank, not much did. A really quick game in terms of real time, I tabbed like mad through this one. Got myself in trouble a few times, especially on Cocytus, where I ran into the first little building I saw and started tabbing Ice Fiends only to discover good ole' Antaeus was right next to me, hitting like a truck. This is the only time I had to use Sanctuary to survive. Had a couple of other close calls, killed Gloorx without realising and spent about 5 minutes just running around his level, trying to find him, before remembering to chardump and read through my kills. Killed Cerebov with my Spectral weapon-bro praising Zin, who was at least king enough to illuminate him. Got all the Hell Princes on the first try, which made me quite smug.

I started with Zin, and stuck with him through the whole game, with the exception of the Abyss rune, where I went The Shining One so I could brand my Great Mace. Zin seems to require ~10-15 invocations to really get going in early game, but when he does the game gets hilarious. I haven't really tried Old Zin, but the new recite is so fun to use. The Orc Mines are practically free items and gold. Zin has always had great defensive abilities [even though I never tried Vitalisation], but with the new recite, he is great offensively, too.

The best was probably Vaults:5. Smash a potion of speed, and run down shouting. The ambush immediately turns into a scene from the old Testament, heretics blinded and paralyzed with Divine Wrath. Zin appears to be The Emperor of Mankind - Burn the heretic, Kill the mutant, Purge the unclean. Recite is usable on every major threat in the game, and as evidenced by my screenshot continues to be great post-endgame. I had hellions and mummy priests disintegrate into salt, even managed to confuse a few of the Pan Lords, including one of the major 4, but I can't quite remember which. TSO makes for an easier game due to the healing and the summons, but Zin is definitely viable. Doesn't really help in Lair, though, unless you cage a hydra or something. However, reciting a group of popcorn demons to salt is the most satisfying thing ever, let me tell you that.

Charms is really great as an addition to melee in extended, especially haste and Spectral Weapon. My go-to combination for hard encounters was Haste, Spectral, start Reciting and tab like mad. I didn't actually get controlled blink until the last 2 runes, and even then I think the only major achievement I got through that was managing to abyss myself while trying to get past a Zot trap in Tomb:1. Casting in GDA wasn't that much trouble, although I did require 25+ charms for the spells to be relatively reliable.

Gargoyles are great, not really overpowered for extended, but definitely one of the best 3-rune species. rElec, slow metab, flying - all nice to have before things get going. Torment resistance was what saved me in extended, I believe, since I only had 1 pip of rN. I didn't want to go TSO, so I stayed with Zin and hoped for the best. The low HP was horrible against hellfire, though. Had a ton of family-friendly fun times with hellfire.

Equipment wise, I made my own weapon and armour, the rings were from shops in Orc. Incredible timing with a scroll of acquirement gave me those sweet boots right before strolling into the Lava ending of Snake. The Salamanders would've destroyed me otherwise. Had a ton of acquirement scrolls, but I generally wasted them. A few into weapons, a ton into armour. The wand of healing was the only great thing I got, and it definitely saved my gargoyle-y ass in extended. I've definitely had games with better found equipment. I did have a ton of slaying, at least, and things died really quickly. A Spectral +9/+8 Holy Great mace does help, I'll give it that.

All in all, Gargoyle Gladiator of Zin - 5/5, would Recite again.

edit : Whoa, forgot about this one 47464 | Elf:3    | HP: 1/132 [deep elf annihilator/crystal spear (44)] yikes

[TripJack]

lol 72 AC, congrats!

[tryrar]

Oh goddamit, I find some randart gloves that are rC, rF, and acc+6, but -5 AC. is that worth the AC hit?

[frostshotgg]

What race, class, armor do you have?

[Leafsnail]

Probably not.