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Author Topic: Economy  (Read 5277 times)

Leafsnail

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Re: Economy
« Reply #30 on: July 06, 2009, 12:50:02 pm »

I'm fairly sure Britain wasn't unified peacefully either.
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Rezan

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Re: Economy
« Reply #31 on: July 06, 2009, 02:08:07 pm »

That would explain their former tendency to pillage everything everywhere, though, wouldn't it?
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Leafsnail

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Re: Economy
« Reply #32 on: July 06, 2009, 03:09:52 pm »

That would explain their former tendency to pillage everything everywhere, though, wouldn't it?
Applies to all three countries mentioned, and yes.
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Yanlin

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Re: Economy
« Reply #33 on: July 06, 2009, 04:01:08 pm »

Quote
All I have to say, is that US of A was founded by terrorists. Libertarian Liberal terrorists.

Israel was also founded by terrorists, coincidentally. Strange how these terrorist nations tend to get as many weapons they can, then meddle in other countries' business... It might be a trend.

Quite incorrect.

Call me biased, but there's a difference between settling and terrorism. I don't recall the settling Zionists attacking anyone except in self defense.

Sure later popped up groups like "The defense" and such. They DEFENDED the Jewish settlements.

It may be invasive settling, but it's not terrorism.



As for Britain, I'm pretty sure conquest != Terrorism.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Economy
« Reply #34 on: July 08, 2009, 04:59:07 pm »

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I'd still hesitate to call what happened in the USSR as anything even beginning to approach communism.  For instance, there's no reason why you can't have a democratic communist government.  There are no classes in a communist society, and there most certainly were in the USSR.  In addition, Stalin's frequent and seemingly random purges also didn't fit in.

There is no reason why you can't have a Democratic Communist Government...but there is also no reason why you can't have a Communist Dictatorship too. There are lots of different "sects" (for a lack of a better word) of Communists out there, so there is no reason why you can't just assume only one "sect" of Communism is the absolutely correct one.

And Stalin's purges were an outgrowth of the purges in the 1920's. These 1920's purges weren't violent at all, but they did start kicking out people from the Communist Party who were seen to not be Communists. Stalin's purges were different in that Stalin sent people to the gulags and to the firing chamber, but even that had some class elements:
1) If the USSR wanted to denounce a factory manager, the workers would assisting in denouncing their factory managers. The poor workers turning against the rich factory managers.
2) Joesph Stalin wanted to get rid of the kulaks (rich peasents) as a class, under the belief that the peasents were hoarding food that should go off to workers or be sold so as to assist in Russian development. So, you got class warfare between the Workers and the Peasents.

I understand it might be lame but...Joesph Stalin calls himself a communist. Hence why I also call him a communist. Joesph Stalin had a great effect on Russia, and he still have supporters to this very day. That's why I don't want to speak ill of this man, other than the fact that he is a mass murderer.

It is interesting though that, in the Stalinist Mod, the only reason the LCS would hate the Stalinists is not due to the Stalinists' economic policy (workers' rights, CEO Salary, etc.), but due to its social policies (freedom of speech, nuclear power, abortion, etc.).

Okay, back to the economy?
« Last Edit: July 08, 2009, 05:32:02 pm by Servant Corps »
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E. Albright

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Re: Economy
« Reply #35 on: July 09, 2009, 02:28:25 am »

Quite incorrect.

Call me biased, but there's a difference between settling and terrorism. I don't recall the settling Zionists attacking anyone except in self defense.

Sure later popped up groups like "The defense" and such. They DEFENDED the Jewish settlements.

It may be invasive settling, but it's not terrorism.

I strongly suggest you review the history of the last decade or so of Mandate Palestine. Haganah was hardly the only Jewish paramilitary organization extant. The actions of Irgun - to say nothing of Lehi - are of particular note; recall also that both organizations were absorbed into the IDF in May '48, with full amnesty.

I understand it might be lame but...Joesph Stalin calls himself a communist. Hence why I also call him a communist. Joesph Stalin had a great effect on Russia, and he still have supporters to this very day. That's why I don't want to speak ill of this man, other than the fact that he is a mass murderer.

Yes and no... while avoiding drifting into No True Scotsman territory is laudable, words do have meaning. If I claim to be a free-market capitalist while pushing anarchist economic reforms, then I'm just plain not correct. More relevantly, if I claim to be promoting democracy by propping up a capitalist dictator, I'm simply misappropriating the term for propaganda reasons. I personally feel safe in saying that's the dynamic at work in Stalinist "communism".

It is interesting though that, in the Stalinist Mod, the only reason the LCS would hate the Stalinists is not due to the Stalinists' economic policy (workers' rights, CEO Salary, etc.), but due to its social policies (freedom of speech, nuclear power, abortion, etc.).

This is true as long as economic policy retains the particular abstract form it currently possesses. Recall that Stalinism has no problem stripping labor rights away from "undesirables", and in any case insists on inserting Party into a leadership role in all such matters. With the current economic abstractions, LCS and SCS might see eye to eye... but that just shows the limits of granularity therein rather than revealing true economic concurrence.
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Yanlin

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Re: Economy
« Reply #36 on: July 09, 2009, 05:44:30 am »

Quite incorrect.

Call me biased, but there's a difference between settling and terrorism. I don't recall the settling Zionists attacking anyone except in self defense.

Sure later popped up groups like "The defense" and such. They DEFENDED the Jewish settlements.

It may be invasive settling, but it's not terrorism.

I strongly suggest you review the history of the last decade or so of Mandate Palestine. Haganah was hardly the only Jewish paramilitary organization extant. The actions of Irgun - to say nothing of Lehi - are of particular note; recall also that both organizations were absorbed into the IDF in May '48, with full amnesty.



How come I never even heard of them?
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Rezan

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Re: Economy
« Reply #37 on: July 09, 2009, 06:37:49 am »

Because the Israeli government isn't fond of telling its people what was done to create the nation. You can look Irgun up, it's rather famous. 60 or so terrorist attacks if I'm not mistaken. The King David Hotel Bombing probably being the most famous one.

Ben Gurion told them to "surrender" and join the IDF. Seems more like a warm embrace if you ask me.
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Yanlin

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Re: Economy
« Reply #38 on: July 09, 2009, 07:27:19 am »

Yeah. So not fond that it's basically all they ever talk about in history classes.

Seriously. They NEVER talk about stuff that don't have some relation to the founding.



But the wiki search checks out. In fact, I have heard about it. By the more common name. Etzel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun

It was actually one of the the PREDECESSORS of the IDF. From my history lessons I know they were a group that broke off from the Hagana because they had a different ideology.

I'll admit they committed acts of terror. But you can't say they alone founded the country. After all, they broke off from the Hagana. Can't judge a book by one chapter, can you?

I'll admit that I forgot about them.

Now then. Back to the topic?
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mainiac

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Re: Economy
« Reply #39 on: July 09, 2009, 11:32:55 am »

Can't judge a book by one chapter, can you?

Okay, let us suppose for a second that Israel should not be held accountable for Zionist paramilitary groups.  Israel gets a pass because they do not condone the terrorist actions these groups have taken.

By the same standard, Lebanon clearly should not be even less accountable for the Islamic paramilitary group Hezbollah.  Not only does Lebanon not condone Hezbollah's terrorism, the government has waged active war against Hezbollah terrorists.  Hezbollah is an enemy of much of Lebanese society and receives it's funding from Syria and Iran, countries most Lebanese despise.

If we hold them to the same standard and Israel us not to be held to account for Etzel and other groups, Lebanon should not be held accountable for Hezbollah.

However, in 2006, when Hezbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers, Israel held the entire nation responsible for this action.  During the subsequent Israeli invasion, international groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch documented numerous Israeli attacks on civilians which served no military purpose at all.  Israel blockaded the entire cost of Lebanon, devastating the Lebanese economy, despite the fact that Hezbollah was receiving it's weapons by land.  By the time Israel's was done reacting to the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, more then a thousand Lebanese civilians were killed and countless people were condemned to poverty by the billions of dollars of damage that the Israeli military had inflicted to civilian infrastructure.

Many believe that Israel deliberately targeted the Lebanese people in order to turn them against Hezbollah which would certainly qualify as terrorism.  However it isn't even necessary to make the distinction between whether this was the Israeli aim or not.  In the pursuit of it's goal of destroying Hezbollah, Israel inflicted massive suffering on innocent civilians.  Israel did not consider itself responsible for avoiding such casualties when possible.  Attacks were conducted where there were no Hezbollah militants.  One journalist witnessed an Israeli command post as it heard the results of an airstrike.  Upon hearing that one lone Hezbollah commander had been killed, the officers started cheering, expressing no remorse for the 30 or so civilians they killed defeating one man.  A 30-1 ratio and they cheered.

It's possible to argue about Israeli motivations however that doesn't matter.  They were not fighting a belligerent government.  They attacked civilians in pursuit of a political agenda.

Attacking civilians to achieve a political agenda is terrorism.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
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Yanlin

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Re: Economy
« Reply #40 on: July 09, 2009, 01:12:13 pm »

Can't judge a book by one chapter, can you?

Okay, let us suppose for a second that Israel should not be held accountable for Zionist paramilitary groups.  Israel gets a pass because they do not condone the terrorist actions these groups have taken.

By the same standard, Lebanon clearly should not be even less accountable for the Islamic paramilitary group Hezbollah.  Not only does Lebanon not condone Hezbollah's terrorism, the government has waged active war against Hezbollah terrorists.  Hezbollah is an enemy of much of Lebanese society and receives it's funding from Syria and Iran, countries most Lebanese despise.

If we hold them to the same standard and Israel us not to be held to account for Etzel and other groups, Lebanon should not be held accountable for Hezbollah.

However, in 2006, when Hezbollah kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers, Israel held the entire nation responsible for this action.  During the subsequent Israeli invasion, international groups such as Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch documented numerous Israeli attacks on civilians which served no military purpose at all.  Israel blockaded the entire cost of Lebanon, devastating the Lebanese economy, despite the fact that Hezbollah was receiving it's weapons by land.  By the time Israel's was done reacting to the kidnapping of 2 soldiers, more then a thousand Lebanese civilians were killed and countless people were condemned to poverty by the billions of dollars of damage that the Israeli military had inflicted to civilian infrastructure.

Many believe that Israel deliberately targeted the Lebanese people in order to turn them against Hezbollah which would certainly qualify as terrorism.  However it isn't even necessary to make the distinction between whether this was the Israeli aim or not.  In the pursuit of it's goal of destroying Hezbollah, Israel inflicted massive suffering on innocent civilians.  Israel did not consider itself responsible for avoiding such casualties when possible.  Attacks were conducted where there were no Hezbollah militants.  One journalist witnessed an Israeli command post as it heard the results of an airstrike.  Upon hearing that one lone Hezbollah commander had been killed, the officers started cheering, expressing no remorse for the 30 or so civilians they killed defeating one man.  A 30-1 ratio and they cheered.

It's possible to argue about Israeli motivations however that doesn't matter.  They were not fighting a belligerent government.  They attacked civilians in pursuit of a political agenda.

Attacking civilians to achieve a political agenda is terrorism.

*Ahem*

We're talking about the founding of the country and I said I don't condone the actions. What do you want?
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Rezan

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Re: Economy
« Reply #41 on: July 09, 2009, 04:17:10 pm »

My point was that Ben Gurion was the guy who pardoned the bastards. He was a founder.
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mainiac

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Re: Economy
« Reply #42 on: July 09, 2009, 06:00:22 pm »

We're talking about the founding of the country and I said I don't condone the actions. What do you want?

I was simply trying to make it clear that Israel has it's fair share of innocent blood on it's hands with the example that sprung most immediately to mind.  Saying that you thought Israel acted solely in "defense" makes you appear quite naive to me.
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Yanlin

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Re: Economy
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2009, 04:19:59 am »

We're talking about the founding of the country and I said I don't condone the actions. What do you want?

I was simply trying to make it clear that Israel has it's fair share of innocent blood on it's hands with the example that sprung most immediately to mind.  Saying that you thought Israel acted solely in "defense" makes you appear quite naive to me.

I'll have to agree on that point. The end does not justify the means.

What I was referring to as defense was the defense of the already illegally built settlements.
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mainiac

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Re: Economy
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2009, 10:29:47 pm »

You think the Palestinians moved into refugee camps because they wanted a change of scenery?
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