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Author Topic: Beware ranged local leaders  (Read 3494 times)

(name here)

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #15 on: December 30, 2008, 06:36:04 pm »

The crossbow killed kings on the battlefield. Presumably, said king had top-grade steel plate.

WHICH king? I'm not arguing with you, but I'd like names. Medieval Monarchs That Actually Died In Battle is not a huge list, and I can't think of ANY that were specifically killed by arrows.

P.S. Harold Godwinsson doesn't count. Nobody takes that story seriously anymore.
William Rufus and Richard The Lionheart

EDIT: it seems that only Richard was actually killed in battle, and he wasn't in full plate and chain, just plate..
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 06:40:41 pm by (name here) »
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Marlowe

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #16 on: December 30, 2008, 07:25:02 pm »

Yeah, OK. Rufus was a hunting accident/assassination, almost certainly unarmoured at the time, and the Lionheart (it's a shorter title than Bloodthirsty Jew-Baiter) would have survived if he'd actually had medical treatment. He decided to do the castle assault first, and things went septic. According to legend, he had the archer responsible for wounding him bought before him before he died, and announced that the man's life would be sparred. John had him flayed alive anyway.

I also sincerely doubt Richard was wearing plate at the time of being wounded. Or any armour at all for that matter. I'm not even sure if people were wearing plant in the late 12th century.

As far as kings who died in battle went, I can think of James IV of Scotland (but he died a few feet from the English general with a lot of Billhooks in the way, so I doubt if arrows made a difference). John of Bohemia at Crecy (probably arrows involved there. Not crossbows mind. And bear in mind, the dude was BLIND), Richard III (in the thick of close combat, probably NOT archery), and if he counts as a "king" Charles le Temeraire (hacked to bits by swiss halberds). Also, people like Harald Hadraga who doubt really count because nobody who spoke french ever heard of him. But I don't think "getting hacked up by huscarl double-handers" really matters here anyway.

On the original topic, I've had ranged local leaders be completely ineffectually against my dwarves. I mean when one champion wanders out unarmed and trashes an entire warband without the elite bowgoblin leader hitting her once you have to wonder.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2008, 07:27:30 pm by Marlowe »
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sneakey pete

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #17 on: December 30, 2008, 08:26:20 pm »

While crossbows might be overpowered, so are shields. Legendary+5 shield user with a masterwork steel shield will probably last through 100 bolts shot at them. or more.
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Orange Drink

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #18 on: December 31, 2008, 01:34:11 am »

While crossbows might be overpowered, so are shields. Legendary+5 shield user with a masterwork steel shield will probably last through 100 bolts shot at them. or more.

phh. my ledgendary wrestlers can sidestep 100 bolts. sometimes in a single frame.

have only had 3 deaths by projectiles in that fort.
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Schwern

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #19 on: December 31, 2008, 07:00:42 pm »

Actually a good set of steel armor can stop a bullet.  They used to shoot armor, and the armor that survived was left only with a dent.  The dent was refered to as a proof mark.

Sure, but which bullet?  Pistols have almost no penetrating power.  I can stop a 9mm pistol round with a decent sized book.  Even a .45 doesn't do much, it's just too light and too short a barrel to get a good run up to high velocity.  Break out a rifle and your steel armor is in trouble.  A modern .308 has 3500 J of energy, five times a 9mm pistol round and 35 times the heaviest English bow.  And a musket ball is so heavy it'll punch through most armor at close range.  Start playing around with .50cal and now you're talking about penetrating 20mm of armor plate.  Remember, the Browning M2 .50cal machine gun we still use on military vehicles was designed to fight WWI-era tanks!

And then there's the armor.  High quality armor is tricky to make.  Too brittle and it shatters.  Too soft and it won't stop the blow.  A high quality steel was expensive and rare in medieval times.  Then there's the thickness.  Most breastplates were only 1-2mm thick, with helmets being a little thicker.  As firearms started appearing, armor got thicker to deal with them, but only an extra mm or two.  After that it's just too heavy.  Almost any rifle round will punch through 2mm of even high quality steel.  (Wish I had the materials to test).

A pistol is largely useless on a battlefield, so I would not want to walk out in steel armor expecting to be safe from bullets.

Period long barreled firearms fired at relatively low velocities but a very heavy ball.  Much heavier then what most rifles today fire.  I'd expect them to be able to see off 2mm of steel at close range easily.  The introduction of long-ranged, high-penetration firearms began the arms race between firearms and armor which firearms ultimately won.

Of course, this is all moot in DF terms as firearms weren't a serious military item in the west until the mid-1500s.

PS That bit about the proof mark sounds like a load of BS.  It's true the proof mark indicates the armor (or more likely, weapon) has been tested, but they were made with stamps by the armorer containing their seal as an official "inspected by #12" mark.  Can you imagine how silly that would be?

Gullible Knight: "See here, my good man.  I wish to purchase your finest plate."
Totally Honest Merchant: "This armor is of the highest quality!  See this dent?  That is where it shrugged off Excalibur itself!"
Gullible Knight: "Yes, clearly that indistinct mark must have been made by the sword of kings!  I'll take three."
Totally Honest Merchant: "Indeed, my Lord is too generous.  And if my lord would be so kind, I have a bridge in the New World he may be interested in acquiring the deed to?"

Yeah, right.
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TettyNullus

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #20 on: December 31, 2008, 07:16:32 pm »

I've read about proof marks in multiple sources referring to late medieval armour, almost always in relationship to firearms at the period. They haven't used proof marks since, I dunno, by around time of American Revolution at very least, it only lasted for a few centuries before tactics demaned more mobility over protection ( Those armours were no lightweight ) and ended up being left behind until mid-20th century (Russians were using mass-manfactured armour by time they struck back against Nazi German, wasn't too common or liked, but it works, after a fashion ).

As for modern firearms, like I've said, anything above a pistol, even modern armours have trouble against it unless it have enough bulk and mass to block it ( Though, for an armour that'd protect you against all man-portable firearms, forget it, RPG are man-portable, and it manage to cripple tanks  ;D )
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Tormy

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #21 on: January 01, 2009, 07:22:46 am »

While crossbows might be overpowered, so are shields. Legendary+5 shield user with a masterwork steel shield will probably last through 100 bolts shot at them. or more.

Yeah, that is true. I have high hopes in the combat arc. Combat must be much more realistic.  :)
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jester

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #22 on: January 01, 2009, 07:57:39 am »



Yeah, that is true. I have high hopes in the combat arc. Combat must be much more realistic.  :)
[/quote]

  I dont know if I want it to be too realistic, Its usually the 15 or so of my military who arent sleeping/eating/staggering about like the lazy drunken midgets they are VS 150 well armed gobs.  It takes me a few years to train my infantry up to a decent level, (with more than a few sparring losses) and the sheer amount of bone/wooden ammo that it takes to train up a half decent archer is staggering.  I like watching my champions rip the guts out of the goblin hordes, I just want a bit more control.  (drove me nuts playing the zombie mod, 15 archers activated and armed, 3 ended up at their posts, the rest had found more important things to do)
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Porpoisepower

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #23 on: February 27, 2009, 12:21:15 pm »

In anycase armor fell out of practice not because they couldn't protect from bullets, but because you could arm several times as many soldiers with guns than for the same cost as one armored knight.
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Akhier the Dragon hearted

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #24 on: February 27, 2009, 01:04:07 pm »

there is also a time component. it takes years of training to be even a squire and many more to be a knight. compare that to going and rounding up a town of people giving them a crash course in guns then telling them which way to shoot is faster, cheaper, and by far easier.
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cephalo

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 03:53:35 pm »

The problem with the DF crossbow isn't the penetrating power - right now it sometimes penetrates and sometimes doesn't, which matches RL pretty nicely. The problem with the DF crossbow (and indeed all ranged weapons) is the fire rate- THAT's what makes them imbalanced. A group of armored troops charging ranged troops should take a volley or two and should take losses from that. Right now, however, they take dozens of shots from each enemy.

Lol, I once had a regular marksdwarf get ambushed outside by a group of six or seven melee goblins. He machine gunned them all down before they could close the distance.
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Thor2axe

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #26 on: February 28, 2009, 05:07:20 pm »

I know that the 'proof-mark' thing is true. Maybe not in the period, but as a practice. I have seen it. Some blacksmiths will use the same weapon to test all of their armours, for regularity. Now, these are modern blacksmiths, but I would hope that they got the practice from somewhere.

Musketballs may have the energy, in terms of numbers, to pierce a piece of straight steel the same size as a breastplate. But armour is angled and and can deflect that bullet, even if only a little.
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Porpoisepower

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Re: Beware ranged local leaders
« Reply #27 on: March 04, 2009, 10:54:47 am »

Also properly raising the metal when your forming your armor actually pushes the metal arround is such a way that it is thicker in key places.

So your Cuisses or helmets made from 18 guage metal will be 16 guage in some places and 20 guage in others.

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