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Author Topic: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)  (Read 1157 times)

Rhenaya

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the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« on: January 16, 2009, 04:46:14 am »

while doing a little thoughts bout casts in the modding forum, i got the idea of more politics
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=29821.msg393793


now we have the druids at the elves, the kings (kobolds, dwarf and humans), some mayors (humans additonal sites mostly), annoying nobles (dwarfs sites mostly) and the demons (goblins)
on the love side we only got imortal monogamisn on all sentients

no we start with different love settings, we put them into new tags for the entities
at thirst we need a new tag to determine if the love setting is global or personal_matter
[LOVE_INTERESTS:GLOBAL] means once the entity decided to take one (or more forms) of the given all beings within the socity stick to the same behaviour
[LOVE_INTERESTS:PERSONAL_MATTER] jut the opposite: every individual decides their own, this could make also new happy or more unhappy thoughts as a female that likes monogamisn see her husband with another and gets unhappy... love driven tantrums incoming!

after this we need to take decide about the different variaties
[LOVE_INTEREST:IMMORTAL_MONOGAMISM] maybe needs a better tag, but i cat think of one, thats just the default one, this get also in affect if no other is decided in the entity. means the love is immortal, even if the mate dies the surviver will not take a new one. this will be very unlikly in immortal species... because every one needs it once in a while ;p maybe the setting for our maternal dwarven families, maybe a human will do this too
[LOVE_INTEREST:LIFETIME_MONOGAMISM] same as above, just if one achieved it to die, the surviver gets "free" and look for a new mate (noone wants to die old and alone). most likeley within humans.
[LOVE_INTEREST:MONOGAMISM] again the same but the relationship can break up even within lifespan, maybe its illegal or needs a divorce in their ethics, but it could happen, again something occurs within humans.
[LOVE_INTEREST:LIFETIME_POLYGAMISM] every member may have multiple love interests, its just like cheating_monogamism except its offical, but they never break it up. maybe something this tree huggers will do... so this elfen chick is loves 2 males, a female, and that three with the obvious looking branch *coughs* i am drifting away
[LOVE_INTEREST:POLYGAMISM] just the same as above, except they may break an relationship up
[LOVE_INTEREST:FEMALE_HAREM] also with MALE_HAREM or just HAREM... one (fe)male gets all the lovers, and the rest only get one... this may be something connected to socitiy status, however if one of their mates cheat they get jealous and a unhappy thought
[LOVE_INTEREST:LEADER_HAREM] well this is something for insectoid entitys (antman anyone?) only the (site) leader get laid

now we also get three new ethics with this:
[ETHIC:LOVE_BISEXUAL:xxx] unthinkable is pretty clear, the more we raise up the ladder the more it will become more common, up to 100% if it is acceptable, also interesting if this gets something crimelike :>
[ETHIC:LOVE_GAY:xxx] same again just a unit with this preference will only take his own gender as mates... it goes up to 50% and within entitys with only monogam relationships you wont see much difference to a bisexual one... however this is capped as we want offspirngs
[ETHIC:LOVE_CHEAT:xxx] again we have different types if its acceptable it may occur and produe unhappy thoughts at the mate, can  also be some crime or just unthinkable, cheaters will get lovers in the relationship screen even if one (or both) is already married. cheaters withouts a relationship on both sites, are looking like common lovers just they break up on some point.



after all this we may get to the leadership and politics thingie, we dont need ethics here so we start right away:
at first we have nobility, if multiple are set, the game will take one and stick to it
[POLITICS:NOBILITY:FEUDAL] this is the current setting at mountainhomes, we get a baron, count or duke on how big the fort is, the bloodline is inherit so if you dont have a offspring to take over the place a new one will come as immigrant soon, this is something i think is more common among the humans
[POLITICS:NOBILITY:MONEY] as with nobility the tax collector and economics arrive, but just no immigrant baron? well the richest (dwarf) will act as noble, just he still works with his new baron title (AWESOME!) but also do the diplomatic deeds (unless the civ leader/s arrive), well this is more dwarfy i think :p
[POLITICS:NOBILITY:MILITARY] your site leader is the mightiest champion, this is acutally what we have at human, goblin and kobold towns/caves/towers/whatever
[POLITICS:NOBILITY:MAYOR] the site leader is the one got eletcted, so no nobles, not about wage but about connections. the mayor take other the demands and duties of the noble, this acts like the early game, except the bigger you get the more the mayor demands
[POLITICS:NOBILITY:NONE] and this is like the early game without nobility at all, you never have to make a royal thronroom for anyone, the mayor still act as site leader for diplomatic needs, but dont demand anything, most likly at elven socities

you also may need to define a name for the ranks, however this will only take need in the feudal and the money system, military will just stay the champions they are and mayors are still mayors
[POLITICS:NOBILITY_NAME:BARON:"Baron":"Baroness"]
[POLITICS:NOBILITY_NAME:COUNT:"Count":"Countess"]
[POLITICS:NOBILITY_NAME:BARON:"Duke":"Duchess"]

if multiple civ politics are selected they will change once in a while, maybe withhin (civil) wars or something
[POLITICS:CIV:KING] this is the standard king setting, he will inherit to the firstborn, gender doesnt matter so also implies a queen, the consort(s for polygams/harems ^^) will need own dinner and sleeping rooms
[POLITICS:CIV:PATRIARCH] same as the king, just only the male will inherit
[POLITICS:CIV:MATRIARCH] guess what? :p

for all down here consorts and babys will share the sleeping rooms without negative thougts.
[POLITICS:CIV:REPUBLIC:x:y] a whole bunch get selected every y years from all over the civ, so you get like x kings with less demands (but in summary the same as a king :p). thenever a dwarf of your own site is elected he will still work, but immigrants will only annoy like default nobles and rush out as soon as they got unelected. x can be 1 (like normal president system we have in most republics) or 3 like the tribunal in late romanian republic. i dont suggest more than 10 will get really annoying with a flood of nobles xD y as 0 means lifetime election(!)
[POLITICS:CIV:SENAT:x:y] its same as republic, except you get x leaders from every site the civ posseses, so there are x dwarfs from your own site but also from every other one, y again means lifetime membership after election
[POLITICS:CIV:DICTATOR] same as a king, just offsprings wont inherit, he gets "elected" in theorie, because the one with the most influence will be this (and influence is actual the electing system) its the same as an republic:1:0 technicaly just another name for it ;)
[POLITICS:CIV:DEMOCRATIC] there is no real leader, every now and then the whole inhabitants decide a mandate, most likley if many of your dwarfs like crowns, they will prohibit export of them and such, there will be shown a "ghost" leader in noble screen to observe mandates, but you never need a room or see a name here, not taking a mandate will annoy more people, but less hard than a real noble
[POLITICS:CIV:THEOCRATIC] the highranked member(s) of the ceremonial units will get the leader(s), chosen from the most determined god fellowers, default setting for elves, the leader get chosen from the theological circle. so you get archdruids as leaders from elves, maybe high shamans from goblins and high priests from the humans and dwarfs

now we also need to define the name of the leader(s), you dont have to define one if you dont have selected one, the king/queen this names will be general if not defined in the raws otherwise
[POLITIC:LEADER_NAME:KING:"King":"Kings"] obviosly we start off with this, matriarch and patriarch settings also take the king thingie, well you actualy dont need a plural for this, but i dunno, just take it in already :p
[POLITIC:LEADER_FEMALE:KING:"Queen":"Queens"] if a female name is considered this will be taken, else if not then the default is default (obviously)
[POLITIC:LEADER_NAME:REPUBLIC:"President":"Presidents"]
[POLITIC:LEADER_NAME:SENAT:"Senator":"Senators"]
[POLITIC:LEADER_NAME:DICTATOR:"Emporer":"Emporers"]
[POLITIC:LEADER_FEMALE:DICTATOR:"Empress":"Empresses"]
you wont need to define this for the democratic and theocratic systems, the first one doesnt have a leader and the second ones

and at least the whoreshipping part (any misspell here is wanted just for the fun of it :p)
we actually know 3 types:
[RELIGION:PANTHEON:x:y:z] obviously we have a number of goods, now its just hardcoded 5-6 i think, so you should be able to make y to z gods
[RELIGION:REGIONAL_POWER:x] same as the elves now got, but actually its one to one... this is a monotheistic thing, its just a shortcut for y:z is 1 to 1
for both above x can be either SPIRIT, GOD or POWER
[RELIGION:ANY_APPROPRIATE_POWER] this is just like the regional_power:power thing except no priests will show up, this is what we get with goblins.

also we add this:
[RELIGION:NONE] no priests or god (or whatever) will show up...

now we also have to set names for the priestship
[RELIGION:FOLLOWER:ADEPT:"adept":"adepts"] this kind will be in small settlements (like 10 to 50) and work just like anyone else, those can be set from the player, they take care for a prayer room and praying fellowers until a real priest arrives, then this job gets unused (but if the priest dies it get affected until a new arrives)
[RELIGION:FOLLOWER:PRIEST:"priest":"priests"] this will get some kind of site theological site leader
[RELIGION:FOLLOWER:PRIEST_FEMALE:"priestess":"priests"] we also need a female name sometimes
[RELIGION:FOLLOWER:LEADER:"highpriest":"highpriests"] well guess what? the highest ranking member of all leaders :p will be in the capital along with a lower ranked priest, just as nobles and a king (so you need rooms for both :p)
[RELIGION:FOLLOWER:LEADER_FEMALE:"highpriestess":"highpriests"]
this may also vary
for example the leader can be a pope (well with a female still stay highpriest ^^)
for elves we have the archdruid and druids, kobolds will go for shaman and farseer

if not in an theocratic civ priests are only another annoying noble in a fortress, or quest giver in adventure mode, to expand here, they maybe take care of ceremonical stuff for bringing people into a tomb/graveyard.
also they demand a new roomtype, this can be made around a table or statue, depending on room value:
1. prayer room
2. chapel
3. small church
4. church
5. cathedral
6. grand cathedral
7. dome
8. grand dome

other units may search this place too once in a while (and dont work) the frequency is depending on their personality, a 100 will do it twice as often as he would need to eat and drink and get unhappy if he cant do this. 75 is about once between eating. 50 around just half often and 0 obviously wont care about service their god.
this personality also determines who gets the priest rank.
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From "Angroshs Kinder" Das schwarze Auge Zwergenhandbuch - (Angrosh Children, the dark eye, german pen&paper, dwarven handbook):
"Elves!? Their men dont wear beards, and their women bathe nacked to lure you into the water and drown you. Thank Angrosh they are as ugly as the day and all big and skinny."

Tormy

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2009, 07:54:47 am »

This is a good and well detailed post, but some of your suggested TAGs ain't fitting in the DF gameworld, at least that is my opinion. [Examples: ETHIC:LOVE_GAY, ETHIC:LOVE_BISEXUAL]
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Silverionmox

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2009, 08:44:22 am »

Love:
For each form of relationship, we should have a relative probability of the creature wanting it (eg. hetero 90%, bi 5%, homo 5%) and a corresponding tag in the ethics of the civ how much it is tolerated (eg. hetero 100, bi 0, gay 0).
Maybe this could vary with caste and race also, if a given cultural entity contains more than one (eg. antman workers are not allowed to have relations that produce offspring, but the rest doesn't matter; priest or warriors that aren't allowed to marry etc.).

There should be an indication how much they desire to have a romantic relation too; dwarves most likely would value crafting higher than romance, though that is more something for an overall psychological outlook.

At all times, let's keep in mind the difference between cultural, biological and political attributes, because political, cultural and racial entities can overlap in a dozen ways.
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Justyn

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2009, 08:50:14 am »

This is a good and well detailed post, but some of your suggested TAGs ain't fitting in the DF gameworld, at least that is my opinion. [Examples: ETHIC:LOVE_GAY, ETHIC:LOVE_BISEXUAL]

Well, in all fairness, quite a bit of the stigma in the real world against homosexuality comes from Christianity. In a world with no Christianity, there is a good chance that there will be cultures that simply have no stigma against two men or women having a romantic relationship.

In addition to this, some cultures, regardless of species, can simply different morals: one dwarven civilization can feel that as long as you secure your bloodline, you can take as many homosexual lovers as you please; while another could be staunchly heterosexual, albeit with no problems whatsoever with polygamy. Dunno how that could be coded, but I bet Toady can do it.
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Footkerchief

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2009, 10:08:51 am »

About the political stuff -- Toady has said that the new entity positions (which will replace the hardcoded druid/hammerer/dungeon master type stuff) can be linked to gender and caste, so a lot of that will be taken care of.
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Granite26

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2009, 11:42:38 am »

Good work Rhenaya!

A few extra points on the sex:  Love mores should vary by caste and by position  (Actually, all mores should, but that's just me)

It might be easier to trim it down to two-four seperate tags.  For simplicities sake we'll call it polygamy and jealousy  (How many lovers it's acceptible to have

(Love_Personal:Serial_Monogomy)
(Love_Partner:Lifetime_Monogomy) 
Would mean that I could break up with you but I would expect you not to break up with me.  Toady's random number commonness could be used to select between multiple possible attitudes.

(Love_Personal:Serial_Monogomy:50)
(Love_Personal:Lifetime_Monogomy:50)

would be 50/50 which the dwarf is.

Social mores should also be modeled per lifestyle as the other attitudes are.  I can't wait till the prude dwarves attack the mormon dwarves for their licentious ways

Rhenaya

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Re: the other battlegrounds (politic, worshiping and love)
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2009, 03:48:43 pm »

This is a good and well detailed post, but some of your suggested TAGs ain't fitting in the DF gameworld, at least that is my opinion. [Examples: ETHIC:LOVE_GAY, ETHIC:LOVE_BISEXUAL]

just as justyn said it is something not liked... df gameworld got a pantheon, like greeks, i hope i dont have to say more ;p

@Silverionmox
thats fit with the ethis enough i think, is it a crime its less wanted than its just acceptable

@Justyn
thats the whole idea: different options for different civs from same or different entity

@Footkerchief
well that is a good way to get half the stuff done about the inherit/bloodline thingie but i suggest more variaty :)

@granite
i want to have it a bit widespread because in an antciv there is for sure just a leaderharm like stuff (in matriarch system) "wild" elves i think are mostly polygam while high elfs live more like monogam humans, also humans themself get whole civs about male harmens, another with polygamism (lets call it the 70'tis) and others follow a single god of light, are strickt monogam and against unusuall sexuality (bi/gay)
so i think you have to pin it down...


but yes frequency values should be added :>
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From "Angroshs Kinder" Das schwarze Auge Zwergenhandbuch - (Angrosh Children, the dark eye, german pen&paper, dwarven handbook):
"Elves!? Their men dont wear beards, and their women bathe nacked to lure you into the water and drown you. Thank Angrosh they are as ugly as the day and all big and skinny."