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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3494607 times)

Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11325 on: January 27, 2010, 09:54:20 am »

Oo wasnt there one? try to hit updatein yor browser.
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Totaku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11326 on: January 27, 2010, 09:55:10 am »

No update today? :\

Come now, even when you look at his dev log, he doesn't always update everyday now.

Besides at this current point he's either, trying to work with Baughn on getting 40d17 ready and/or experimenting with hydras trying to make sure the coding for thier heads work properly.

Edit: Oh wait never mind, he just updated. Looks like he's still working on the 40d17 stuff.

I wonder how soon it'll be before 40d17 comes out now since they're making progress.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:01:16 am by Totaku »
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Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11327 on: January 27, 2010, 09:57:02 am »

Quote from: Footkerchief
Spoilerish Question
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: answer (click to show/hide)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:03:54 am by Lancensis »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11328 on: January 27, 2010, 10:01:23 am »

No update today? :\

You may not know, but just yesterday he wrote an update so big it broke the forum's character limit.  I didn't even know it HAD a limit.  Even if he hadn't updated the dev log today, it would still behoove you not to complain about it.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11329 on: January 27, 2010, 10:02:17 am »

No update today? :\

No release, if that's what you mean. But Toady updated his dev log.

Quote
Okay, we've got a handle on the big 40d17 issues, but it'll still take some coordinating. I'm also working on getting an ugly crash-test copy out to Zach, for which I have to iron out a few of the weird game-breakers so he can even try it (like, why are the dwarves all moving at 1/3rd speed now even when the FPS is fine?), and then I should be back to the march toward the main release.

You know, Toady, you should really keep detailed and entertaining bug encounters and share them with us to make the wait at least an entertaining one!
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11330 on: January 27, 2010, 10:05:54 am »

Hmm sounds like as if there is a penalty on speed (incorrectly) working. Maybe the dwarfs arent strong or agile enough for normal walking.
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RedKing

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11331 on: January 27, 2010, 10:12:47 am »



So, "realistically," full plate should reduce bludgeoning damage also (probably based on the impact resistance of the metal & workmanship of the armor), in the same way that a ceramic plate in a bullet-proof vest spreads the impact of the bullet across the user's chest.

That said, there should still be *some* transfer of impact through the rigid plate, and some need for cloth or leather undergarments. Even if you're wearing a ceramic plate, if you get hit with a rifle round, you'll probably be somewhat bruised underneath the plate -- the ceramic plate just changes the "piercing" attack to a much, much weaker "bludgeoning" attack, spreading the impact force over the widest possible area.


Typically, there's a LOT of bruising, if not cracked ribs when you take a hit with a kevlar or ceramic vest. Consider that the point impact force of a bullet is extremely high, and even if spread out to say, an area of several square inches, that's a lot of force and still radially concentrated. The question is how much point impact force would various weapons generate? Solid arrows fired from a composite bow or a high-powered crossbow have a lot of concentrated impact. There's considerable debate over the use of arbalests in engagements like the Hussite Wars as to the effect against armored knights.

Hand-held weapons just aren't going to be able to generate that kind of force (Ultramighty wielders notwithstanding). So I'd think plate would be highly effective against "slow" piercing attacks like spears, with little bruising if any. "Fast" piercing attacks like arrows, bolts (and potentially mounted spears/lances) might turn the attack into a blunt attack over the whole body region. But given that DF combat is still pretty arcane and hard to quantify, it's difficult to suggest an appropriate formula.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11332 on: January 27, 2010, 10:16:29 am »

...Toady updated his dev log.

Quote
...  march ...

...

Okay, we have been given definite and acurate date from official source.

Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11333 on: January 27, 2010, 10:18:16 am »



So, "realistically," full plate should reduce bludgeoning damage also (probably based on the impact resistance of the metal & workmanship of the armor), in the same way that a ceramic plate in a bullet-proof vest spreads the impact of the bullet across the user's chest.

That said, there should still be *some* transfer of impact through the rigid plate, and some need for cloth or leather undergarments. Even if you're wearing a ceramic plate, if you get hit with a rifle round, you'll probably be somewhat bruised underneath the plate -- the ceramic plate just changes the "piercing" attack to a much, much weaker "bludgeoning" attack, spreading the impact force over the widest possible area.


Typically, there's a LOT of bruising, if not cracked ribs when you take a hit with a kevlar or ceramic vest. Consider that the point impact force of a bullet is extremely high, and even if spread out to say, an area of several square inches, that's a lot of force and still radially concentrated. The question is how much point impact force would various weapons generate? Solid arrows fired from a composite bow or a high-powered crossbow have a lot of concentrated impact. There's considerable debate over the use of arbalests in engagements like the Hussite Wars as to the effect against armored knights.

Hand-held weapons just aren't going to be able to generate that kind of force (Ultramighty wielders notwithstanding). So I'd think plate would be highly effective against "slow" piercing attacks like spears, with little bruising if any. "Fast" piercing attacks like arrows, bolts (and potentially mounted spears/lances) might turn the attack into a blunt attack over the whole body region. But given that DF combat is still pretty arcane and hard to quantify, it's difficult to suggest an appropriate formula.

Good lord, what about ballistae?

I have a sneaking suspicion we're going to be debating all this as much after release as before -- just like the historians who're still debating the medieval battles :P
« Last Edit: January 27, 2010, 10:22:31 am by Calenth »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11334 on: January 27, 2010, 10:21:53 am »

You know, Toady, you should really keep detailed and entertaining bug encounters and share them with us to make the wait at least an entertaining one!

Not to be snarky, but it takes time to write "detailed and entertaining" bug reports -- time that will make the wait longer.  And speaking from my own experience, after fixing bugs, I want to work on something interesting instead, not rehash the experience in narrative form.  Maybe that's different for Toady, I don't know.

It's a little weird to say that Toady "really should" entertain us more than he already does.  The dev log and the wall-o-answers have obviously been crucial in keeping interest alive over the past year, but I don't see a pressing need for Toady to spend even more time on community interaction, and there is a pressing need to get the release done soon.  There's a DF Talk coming up -- maybe you could submit this as a discussion topic?
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dreiche2

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11335 on: January 27, 2010, 10:24:40 am »

...Toady updated his dev log.

Quote
...  march ...

...

Okay, we have been given definite and acurate date from official source.

Hehe I misread that first as well...
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Zifnab

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11336 on: January 27, 2010, 10:38:18 am »

Even if you were wearing full plate, the helmet is the weak point, right?  You can't really spread the force out that much, so the brains splat or the neck snaps if hit right with a blunt object.
 
About the adamantine casings proposed,  can dwarves actually attain temperatures necessary to melt adamantine in their forges?  Making thin sheets to cover an existing lead hammer's head might be more easily done.

Along the same lines, will item modifiers like menacing with spikes ever affect the damage of a weapon?  It might be cool in the future if a warrior became fond of a copper sword and refused to fight with any other weapon, but you could send it back to the forge to add spikes to the pommel to upgrade the sword a little.  It would probably create a micromanaging nightmare though.

While I was on wikipedia looking at war hammer stuff I came across this page about surface or case hardening. Does anyone know more about this?
 
For those that don't want to look through the page:
What does case hardening do?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
How was it done historically?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Seems pretty dwarven, and I believe its the right tech era, 14th-15th century, or late medieval.  It would also work well in an item upgrade system, in this case upgrading iron items.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11337 on: January 27, 2010, 10:44:50 am »

Along the same lines, will item modifiers like menacing with spikes ever affect the damage of a weapon?  It might be cool in the future if a warrior became fond of a copper sword and refused to fight with any other weapon, but you could send it back to the forge to add spikes to the pommel to upgrade the sword a little.  It would probably create a micromanaging nightmare though.

Damage from spikes has come up, yeah:

You can add spikes to armor right now, as a decorative improvement...  strange that they don't actually come up in fighting...  maybe I should jot that down somewhere...
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11338 on: January 27, 2010, 10:49:56 am »

Along the same lines, will item modifiers like menacing with spikes ever affect the damage of a weapon?  It might be cool in the future if a warrior became fond of a copper sword and refused to fight with any other weapon, but you could send it back to the forge to add spikes to the pommel to upgrade the sword a little.  It would probably create a micromanaging nightmare though.

Damage from spikes has come up, yeah:

You can add spikes to armor right now, as a decorative improvement...  strange that they don't actually come up in fighting...  maybe I should jot that down somewhere...

Especially given the fact that maces and flails and morningstars (flail is a spiked ball on a chain, a morningstar is a spiked ball on the end of a stick and a mace... is a club with spikes? right?) can do quite a bit of damage with spikes since the spikes would concentrate the force on one point (and possibly some piercing damage) rather than spread out if it were just a smooth ball.
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SirPenguin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11339 on: January 27, 2010, 11:39:49 am »

You know, Toady, you should really keep detailed and entertaining bug encounters and share them with us to make the wait at least an entertaining one!

Not to be snarky, but it takes time to write "detailed and entertaining" bug reports -- time that will make the wait longer.  And speaking from my own experience, after fixing bugs, I want to work on something interesting instead, not rehash the experience in narrative form.  Maybe that's different for Toady, I don't know.

It's a little weird to say that Toady "really should" entertain us more than he already does.  The dev log and the wall-o-answers have obviously been crucial in keeping interest alive over the past year, but I don't see a pressing need for Toady to spend even more time on community interaction, and there is a pressing need to get the release done soon.  There's a DF Talk coming up -- maybe you could submit this as a discussion topic?

You're just reading too much into my comments; it was just a lighthearted joke, a suggestion not to be taken literally. Honestly, if I had my way, I'd tell Toady to completely ignore the dev log, his email, PMs, and forum posts until he gets the new version done. The less distractions, the better!
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