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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3510563 times)

Dame de la Licorne

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6855 on: November 16, 2009, 09:07:08 am »

Quote from: Dame de la Licorne
Why do Siege Engineers not get artifacts when all of the other reasonable vanilla professions do?  Is it an oversight, and if not I'm curious as to the reasoning behind that decision?

It was probably made five years ago, so I'm not sure.  If I remember, both siege engineers and artifacts predate the original release, and artifacts were one of the earliest additions.  Lessee...  artifacts were in there in Nov 2004 at the latest, and July 2006 at the latest for siege engines (going by the old dev log, forum might have earlier dates).  So my reconstructed-in-my-mind decision would be something like, "adding new siege engineer profession...  name...  jobs...  does it get moods?  nah, engine parts would be weird, ballista arrowhead might be cool but it gets consumed during ammo construction..."  Probably something like that.  We'll have to see how that sort of thing plays out when larger siege engines are recognized as a larger possibly moveable map unit like a boat (the current plan, anyway).  It could be that they get shafted again, or they might get something.

Ah, thanks Toady!  I guessed it was something like that but thanks for confirming.  Also, love the wall-of-text, as usual!
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6856 on: November 16, 2009, 09:13:48 am »

Quote from: smjjames
A related question: Would it be possible to have the game update changes to the raws in real time (for stuff that don't require a regen) or would it require a save, quit application, reload application, reload save anyway due to the way the code works? Or maybe that could work better for the arena itself since it doesn't have to load the raw for everything that exists.

Creatures build their data according to the raws, but a lot of it is stored inside of them if it can't rely on the loaded raw definition.  Keeping track of which variable is which type would make adding that kind of thing sort of a mess.  It's more straightforward for things like weapons, maybe, where the data from the raws all remains in the loaded raw definition.  It's still a project though, because it has to clean up and copy over the old raws without messing up anything that's dependent on the current instance of the raws, and those dependencies are potentially all over the place.

Quote from: Neonivek
I was mostly curious if you thought of a way to handle them and how are you even going around to do it?

You also seem to want more then them to simply die off but also to leave behind explorable structures. Are you going to just give them some sort of odd "Hoarding, Ghost Transforming, Dungeon Building" Culture unique to the "Extinctified cultures"?

I think it would be sort of odd to add an entity def that is bound for ruin.  As the currently released version stands, there are ruins of old structures that come from sites that happened to become unpopulated in some way.  So if you were to find pyramids like the old ruined pyramids from the older 3D versions, they would have come from a pyramid-building civilization you could just as easily find alive.  You can currently find a ruined keep in that way (from a civ that would have an occupied keep).  The current entity defs just need more diversity than they currently have.

I don't think it's crucial to have dungeon-type locations that are left behind with level-graded treasures scattered properly or something like that (the pyramid ruins were like that -- it hid the best stuff deeper in).  If there are dungeons, they'd be either abandoned or occupied, created in world gen or during play by the sort of critters that would have a dungeon (like a dwarf fortress).  Game-wise, it would certainly be better to have the old 3D zombie ruins from before than nothing, but hopefully we can do better than that.  Ideally, every explorable adventure location that you find would have a real reason for being there, linked in with the world history and everything else.  There are plenty of ways for that to still involve interesting things to find laying around, though places that would have been looted by whoever sacked them and so on should probably be looted.

Ghost transformations are one of those metaphysical matters that didn't have explanations attempted in the game when they existed, just like the current undead regions.  When those have explanations, things like ruins with zombies should arise more naturally.  This could involve gods in pantheons of death/rebirth/etc., regions linked to death/etc. for whatever reason, etc., but it's all specific mechanics at that point.  I guess a key point there would be that site/civ-wide zombie transformations would still theoretically be able to happen during play, which would be cool, once you've got the world gen mechanics trickled over to dwarf mode or adv mode (or vice versa, whichever way it goes in first).

All of that said, back in the old Armok, there was a notion floating around linked to world generation parameters of being able to attach plot notions to your world.  Looking now at dwarf world gen, it might be hard to jam a notion like "world must have an ancient, dead civilization with stuff" into it while maintaining the current system of having a timeline move forward, but it's possible to get away with things like that by, for instance, picking a civ to have crappier and crappier luck until it finally hits the deadline and, if the civ is still alive, it drops an apocalypse.  I dunno if the priorities will shift that way though.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:38:02 am by Toady One »
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Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6857 on: November 16, 2009, 09:32:10 am »

I guess it's possible right now to mod in a race that is very powerful, but has negative population growth, although I still guess they'd run the risk of being spiked by Goblins and their citry taken over.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:36:12 am by Toady One »
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6858 on: November 16, 2009, 09:34:15 am »

Well that certainly does leave in a few ways to possibly have those interesting guarenteed ruins with Spheres, curses, gods, and Radiation involved. Probably quite a few others as well.

Not sure if it gives you those underground treasue ghost filled temples yet, though maybe it does over time. Afterall there are reasons why Civs don't generally live on Spherical Lands.

Thanks for Answering my question Toady especially with Four Paragraphs
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 09:40:58 am by Neonivek »
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darkflagrance

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6859 on: November 16, 2009, 09:41:04 am »

Quote
Succession itself is something to be handled for later, but the placeholder for this particular issue is in the very short list of actual promises made to specific people for this release, so you'll have your liaison if it can't pull a historical one, POOF generated from scratch.  The actual succession stuff is slated for after we have critters running around the world map during play, when diplomacy should be more fluid, so generation should just fade out for the real replacement.

Yea, I'm willing to accept a placeholder liason from the same stock that immigrants are drawn from for the liasons.

I think everyone will be happy that the presence of liaisons (and diplomats?) is no longer subject to the vagaries of chance, both in world gen and in randomly spawning on top of a dragon.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6860 on: November 16, 2009, 09:42:27 am »

He he, well, the presence of a liaison that year might be affected.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6861 on: November 16, 2009, 10:12:43 am »

There could still be potential of the generated liason to beome prominent in the legends like your own dwarves, but no idea how they would get handled after you abandon.

Still, since its entirely plausible for a civilization to have more than one outpost (heck, various towns, etc are founded while in fort mode), it would be easy to say that the civ has more than one liason/diplomat even though that technically isn't true for worldgen. Its really an RP solution to that problem.

However, when you mentioned about that, I wondered what would happen if you had more than one liason of the same civ on the map (the others being insane or whatever), if that is even possible. That question will likely have to wait until release :)

On the note of liasons, will we have Elven civ liasons? I'm not talking about your dwarven civ having an elf or goblin liason (I've never seen a dwarf civ with a human liason, maybe because their lives are short), I'm talking about the Elves having their own liason. This may actually be possible now with modding. I had heard of people mentioning the elves having liasons but they die off in worldgen and aren't replaced. I would make this question green, but it may get answered by the modders as I'm not sure.
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RantingRodent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6862 on: November 16, 2009, 11:08:26 am »

Couldn't you implement a forcibly "doomed" civ just by setting one or more powers to have a personal hatred against them? Once there are Gods meddling with the world, just setting a couple of them to try to bring down a civ should do the trick over time, right? It seems to fit with the game much better than an artificial concept of bad luck or a forced apocalypse.

Edit: Forgot to green the text
« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 01:08:30 pm by RantingRodent »
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6863 on: November 16, 2009, 11:28:10 am »


Quote from: Mephansteras
Do dwarves now properly figure out who to use two-handed weapons on their own? Or do we still need to specifically tell them to do so?

EDIT: Ok, I missed that was already clarified and answered. Soo..

I frequently see invaders show up with two-handed swords and shields at the same time. Is any of the new work going to fix that?


« Last Edit: November 16, 2009, 11:29:47 am by Mephansteras »
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Sunday

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6864 on: November 16, 2009, 11:33:04 am »

Wait. . .dinosaurs are in?  I totally missed that.  I can't think of one game that wouldn't be better with dinosaurs.  Even DF.






DINOSAURS!
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Lancensis

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6865 on: November 16, 2009, 11:54:48 am »

I can't think of one game that wouldn't be better with dinosaurs.  Even DF.

What about football? Assuming you're one of the players
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6866 on: November 16, 2009, 12:02:13 pm »

Wait. . .dinosaurs are in?  I totally missed that.  I can't think of one game that wouldn't be better with dinosaurs.  Even DF.
DINOSAURS!

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Outcast Orange

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6867 on: November 16, 2009, 12:28:24 pm »


I frequently see invaders show up with two-handed swords and shields at the same time. Is any of the new work going to fix that?


It could be a bug, but it could also be that the entities wielding the two handed weapons are strong enough.
I know titans are allowed to hold two handed weapons in one hand. Maybe you are fighting a race that has some modded extra strength?
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Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6868 on: November 16, 2009, 12:30:32 pm »

I can't think of one game that wouldn't be better with dinosaurs.  Even DF.

What about football? Assuming you're one of the players
Riding them would make it much easier to see what roles players were specialized for. For running the ball you'd want the fastest dino but if something huge and heavy did catch up to it- well, you'd probably need pretty huge stables to get through a season without running out of them.

-

Anyway, for dead civilizations you could basically throw them in between geography generation and actual history progression.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
So you could basically just construct some magnificent cities and then sink an important building and blast the rest of it into oblivion or otherwise toss it around. With stuff like Atlantis you've got the Mediterranean volcano that actually happened but the fantasy of it puts the city out in the Atlantic ocean before any of the civilizations talking about it had recorded histories so this would be the same sort of thing.

You could even do the sort of Tolkien thing where those kinds of places were made by ancient races that were basically like the people currently around but with higher stats but the newcomers fare better if only because they have those legends and superstitions keeping them from digging too deep, in whatever sense, except of course when we're making them do it.

Or maybe they just lost the favor of their gods but whatever way the "there were huge civilizations around that just died ended long before ours had even started" is pretty much a fantasy staple and if they're doomed anyway you'd only need yearly histories for them if you wanted stories about the people in them to be part of the legend but we seem to just about make up people whenever those stories had them.

And of course there would be room for the gods or demons to shake up current civilizations in the same ways. Basically I think you could generate these and have the "before antiquity" stuff say it "refers to the ascension of Samil the gibberish in the year not a number." Well, that sentence format assumes the viewer knows the history and is adding it in so you might have to write of phrases for words set into the stone but you know.

...and you could have kobolds or something be wrecked and twisted forms of the ancient ones, either as punishment from the gods or because of some kind of nasty magic they had to use to lock away the demons. That sort of stuff.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6869 on: November 16, 2009, 12:33:11 pm »


I frequently see invaders show up with two-handed swords and shields at the same time. Is any of the new work going to fix that?


It could be a bug, but it could also be that the entities wielding the two handed weapons are strong enough.
I know titans are allowed to hold two handed weapons in one hand. Maybe you are fighting a race that has some modded extra strength?

Nope, just normal old vanilla DF humans will do this.
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