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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3528317 times)

tomato

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1230 on: March 20, 2009, 03:11:40 pm »

Quote from: catfry
'Plaster casts', a use for gypsum?

Yeah, that's right.  Anhydrite too, I guess (depending on how fast it sucks up water, no idea), but I don't know what I'll actually end up doing.  I don't want to mess around with flows over rocks that interact with water yet.  I'm also not sure how much water will be involved in the use of plaster for casts...  lots of jobs that should use water right now don't use water, and I don't see a reason to alter that right now if it makes things too annoying for me.

Cool. Will there be other ways to make casts if you don't have Gypsum (or trade access to it)? If not, maybe traders could always be able to bring barrels/bags of plaster?

To be fair, if the civ you're trading with doesn't have access to the raw plaster material, they shouldn't have access to the plaster either.

true, but remember that you're able to request raw stone only from outpost liason, so only from dwarfes


If we get 5 more unit types and won't get job priorities (plese tell me that I'm wrong) it means at least 5 more dedicated dwarfs in big forts.

I think I'll need to bump the 200 dwarf cap up a bit...  :-\

It has been my impression that many people find it very hard to employ all dwarves once a fort get's above a certain size. A second point is that many people find the game lacking in challenges currently. A greater labour demand is a challenge.
If you have a fort that gets siged 3 times a year you are playing at what would equal the 'hard' level in other games. The game should be hard.

No one said DF is easy. Though I sense you're suggesting I can change the viciousness of goblins...?
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Vlynndar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1231 on: March 20, 2009, 03:29:18 pm »

Posting in between Toady's list update and devlog update.  I don't know why I feel the need to tell everyone about this.

Good... Good... The plan enters the next phase...
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Alfador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1232 on: March 20, 2009, 05:47:33 pm »

However, I'm considering starting up a notion of "knowledge" as opposed to skill, so that picking some random guy to perform surgery through trial and error might not be the best idea.  However, if I don't get to that, then it'll be just like starting up a new blacksmith from scratch (which is equally silly).

I am very intrigued by this. So someone with zero knowledge or skill could have a near-100% chance to make only hopelessly bungled crafts (twisted swords, cracked goblets, dead dwarves) and a severe penalty to their ability to improve skill. Reading books/inscriptions on a profession, or being directly taught by an instructor with higher skill than you, could improve your knowledge, but not your skill. As you develop skill, you would naturally learn knowledge about a profession, but it would come far more slowly if you didn't already have a lot.

The best gains should ideally come from simultaneous knowledge-boosting activity and skill-boosting activity--lectures and lab sections, in other words. Putting into practice what you learned each month. Someone with a lot of knowledge but very little skill would rapidly increase their skill if they suddenly decided to start, and would make a decent docent even without a great deal of practical experience, since the students still have to get that too.

Plus things like record keeping would have small caps on skill so you couldn't get some dwarf suddenly bulging with muscle because she'd spent the last year and a half keeping track of three logs--instead they'd get a higher modifier from knowledge.
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Fieari

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1233 on: March 20, 2009, 05:50:40 pm »

Plus things like record keeping would have small caps on skill so you couldn't get some dwarf suddenly bulging with muscle because she'd spent the last year and a half keeping track of three logs--instead they'd get a higher modifier from knowledge.
I'm pretty sure attribute gains have already been separated into types.  So physical things can increase physical stats, mental things can increase mental stats.
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Techhead

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1234 on: March 20, 2009, 07:58:47 pm »

Don't traction braces require knowledge of algebra and Cartesian geometry? Research shows, that in fact, it was developed in World War I.
Isn't that kinda out of period?

On the use of plaster, casts were stiffened with other materials such as starch, wax, resin, or egg in the medieval era. Plaster casts only were invented in the early 1800s, and it took longer for it to be adopted.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1235 on: March 20, 2009, 08:14:22 pm »

The ancient Greeks, and then the Romans, were doing a lot with orthopedics that was lost in the medieval era.

I'll try to pinpoint something on traction, or whatever the equivalent was, in my researches.

It's the weekend, so I should be able to get a lot of work done.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1236 on: March 20, 2009, 08:47:36 pm »

What is going to happen with dwarves with horrible spinal wounds? Is there any care in mind for them? Or are they still going to lie around in bed being helpless forever?

Maybe they could do some basic crafts? Boneworking/stonecrafting/woodworking, perhaps? Although I guess that would need to be more long-term, since someone would have to bring them the raw materials.
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Armok

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1237 on: March 20, 2009, 09:39:32 pm »

whit different healing rates for tissues, as well as the bodypart growth and such, how flexible will the speed of that be?
Could you for example have: A borgles borgle is a few centimetres long until age 20, at which point it grows into a massive thing 2m in diameter over just a few days? A creature who's skin heals within minutes without scars, but the muscles and organs take normal time to heal? a creature whit slow metabolism that take a thousand years to heal a wound a dwarf would heal in one year? a poison that seems to do nothing at first, but enlarges the spleen to double it's size every year, so after a few decades the entire creature is an immobile tortured ball of spleen tissue?
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1238 on: March 20, 2009, 09:58:05 pm »

Quote
However, I'm considering starting up a notion of "knowledge" as opposed to skill...

I'm assuming we will see this filtered out to other professions eventually? Seems like this would be a nice way to ease into apprenticeship and teaching/learning.

Is the distinction between the two something like this below, or do you have something else in mind?


Knowledge: Knowing how to do some action, or how to identify something. (So basically like wisdom/experience. Strictly mental)

Skill: Ability to perform some action (strictly physical)


So you may know how to remove an arrow that has punctured the lung (sufficient knowledge), but lack the dexterity to do so (insufficient skill).

Something like that.  I wouldn't say strictly physical for skills.  The main goal is to split out things that a creature shouldn't just be able to stumble upon with a little tinkering.  It perhaps falls in line with "technology" and would probably be stored at both the individual and civilization level.  It should also be able to capture notions like misinformation, so each of the most finely-grained concepts could say, have 32 bits worth of unspecified "facts" and a book could carry both information and misinformation for each bit, if things need to be kept concise.  I haven't sorted it out yet, but those are some of the things that need to be captured.  The more I think about what I need for the system to model what's needed, the less likely we'll see it for this release I think.

Using terms like "doctor" or "surgeon" bothers me somewhat. I'd use a more archaic term that doesn't have so strong link to modern medicine. Chirurgeon? Barber surgeon?

Or then have "progression" for the titles: healer -> bone-mender -> doctor -> chirurgeon

etymonline.com (which I don't know well, so won't vouch for) says "chirurgeon" is a "failed Renaissance attempt to restore Gk. spelling to the word that had got into Eng. as surgeon; now, thank the gods, archaic", while a few dictionaries say "chirurgeon" was alongside "surgeon" in middle english.  I try not to use words with modern origins (let's ignore items for now...), but "surgeon" isn't modern.  If a word is still in use, it doesn't bother me.  "Doctor" is also an old word, which supposedly gained its medical meaning ~1377 (though this wasn't common until the 1500s) (etymonline again).

You can set all unit names in the raws now, so you can change the words I use (aside from any practioners that aren't linked to an entity, which shouldn't happen here except possibly in adventure mode).

Quote from: Mephansteras
Will there be other ways to make casts if you don't have Gypsum (or trade access to it)? If not, maybe traders could always be able to bring barrels/bags of plaster?

I'm not sure if you'll be able to trade for plaster.  You should be able to, but I can't guarantee anything.  You'll always be able to make splints (unless you've really hamstrung yourself).

Don't traction braces require knowledge of algebra and Cartesian geometry? Research shows, that in fact, it was developed in World War I.
Isn't that kinda out of period?

On the use of plaster, casts were stiffened with other materials such as starch, wax, resin, or egg in the medieval era. Plaster casts only were invented in the early 1800s, and it took longer for it to be adopted.

Hippocrates had traction.  SirHoneyBadger had this link, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scamnum, and my own History of Surgery book has another picture of romans using a similar contraption that Hippocrates invented (with accompanying descriptions of course... the pictures aren't that important).  They were pretty good at dealing with overlapping fractures and otherwise setting bones, and it has a very dwarfy feel to it, so the dwarves get to mess with it too.

The 10th century Persians had plaster casts (SHB sent this reference, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muvaffak, but I don't have others offhand).  I don't know about the spread or independent discoveries after that.  Again, it's in period, and since plaster is derived directly from a common mineral, and from a pretty simple process (unless there's something weird I don't know about it), it's very dwarfy.

If you disagree, you can strip it out as soon as I get the knowledge stuff into the entity raws.  Overlapping fractures will probably then require an amputation or just leaving the dwarf alone, but you'll still have splints in place of casts.

What is going to happen with dwarves with horrible spinal wounds? Is there any care in mind for them? Or are they still going to lie around in bed being helpless forever?

Maybe they could do some basic crafts? Boneworking/stonecrafting/woodworking, perhaps? Although I guess that would need to be more long-term, since someone would have to bring them the raw materials.

It'd make sense to let them keep working, but yeah, if they need stuff, it'll have to wait.  I couldn't find any evidence of self-propelled wheelchairs (rather than having somebody else help, which was common enough way back when it seems).  Anything that fits can be used.

whit different healing rates for tissues, as well as the bodypart growth and such, how flexible will the speed of that be?
Could you for example have: A borgles borgle is a few centimetres long until age 20, at which point it grows into a massive thing 2m in diameter over just a few days? A creature who's skin heals within minutes without scars, but the muscles and organs take normal time to heal? a creature whit slow metabolism that take a thousand years to heal a wound a dwarf would heal in one year? a poison that seems to do nothing at first, but enlarges the spleen to double it's size every year, so after a few decades the entire creature is an immobile tortured ball of spleen tissue?

I think I mentioned somewhere long ago that there's currently only one rate slot available per tissue layer, though you can set the stop/start point and the rate.  This goes for healing or growth or whatever else.  Healing rates are measured in tenths of seasonal ticks, I think, which have a resolution of something like 1200 per day, so you could heal up a full fracture in 2 hours I guess, at the fastest.  That could be amplified easily with an additional variable (so that it heals more than 1% each tick at the fastest rate, leading to perfect healing in 1/1200 of a day if you like), but I don't want to get bogged down this time around.  Growth rates are grainier, but they also have the extra variable, so you can have things grow a lot each day, but a day is the finest scale here (speed thing for now, can tweak it later if there's room).
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1239 on: March 20, 2009, 10:15:55 pm »

Toady: You mentioned Persians, and I'm sure this isn't anything you haven't thought of before, but try to keep in mind that "period" implies the geographical part of setting, too. The Middle East around the 10th-12th centuries was EXTREMELY advanced in a lot of ways compared to Europe, so obviously the two aren't directly comparable. Although in this case it seems like you have good justification for the traction bit.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1240 on: March 20, 2009, 10:18:26 pm »

I couldn't find any evidence of self-propelled wheelchairs.
Sounds like something an elf might come up with after being raised in a dwarven settlement.

"Ho, beardless one, what news?"
"Well, I have this mobile chair, powered by any sort of small baitable animal.  You pull this lever in the direction you want to go, and no more than a minute later, the animal's attempts to reach the released food will move the chair."
"Hmm.  That's positively dwarven of you! But make it magma-powered next time."

I have no other useful comments at this time.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1241 on: March 20, 2009, 10:20:59 pm »

Surely if dwarves have access to waterwheels, gearworks, wagons, and other such applied simple machines, they figure out how to make a chair with wheels that the dwarf sitting in it can propel.  It's not a difficult concept.

Now, keeping them from self-propelling their wheelchairs up and down staircases is another matter.  Maybe they strap the chair on their backs and walk up stairs on their hands or something.  They are dwarves.
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Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1242 on: March 20, 2009, 10:35:23 pm »

Toady: You mentioned Persians, and I'm sure this isn't anything you haven't thought of before, but try to keep in mind that "period" implies the geographical part of setting, too. The Middle East around the 10th-12th centuries was EXTREMELY advanced in a lot of ways compared to Europe, so obviously the two aren't directly comparable. Although in this case it seems like you have good justification for the traction bit.

Yeah, I'm aware of this.  I've been thinking for a while of using their chemistry as the dwarven model, prior to gunpowder arriving in the mid 13th century.  Plaster isn't the first time we've bumped into them.  In any case, as plaster casts predate that by 300 years and had the direct mineral link I mentioned, I think it's all good.  Dwarves should probably distinguish themselves in fields like this, if anything.  It's their element, at least in part.  Some of it'll depend on flavor (gunpowder is a decision like this more or less).  I'll have to decide on a case by case basis, but I think most of it will go in.  Our dwarves have more idle time than fighting crazy viking-style scottish dwarves.

edit:  though they drink twice as much.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 10:48:21 pm by Toady One »
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Techhead

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1243 on: March 20, 2009, 10:41:50 pm »

There is always the possibility players might decide to ensure the presence of wheelchair accessible ramps if they start to manufacture wheelchairs for their infirm. Obviously, places like the deep mines might not be very friendly, but I can imagine haulers trucking stuff around.
Then again, I can also imagine an old, deaf, legless, legendary axedwarf with a remarkable resemblance to Mad Hamish.
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Mephansteras

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #1244 on: March 20, 2009, 10:54:00 pm »

Maybe for now have paralyzed or legless dwarves use crutches to get around? That would at least let them go get food and whatnot on their own, and they can at least socialize with other dwarves instead of being effectively stuck in a coma.
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