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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 2101186 times)

zchris13

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6000 on: October 23, 2009, 08:42:17 pm »

That entire conversation just had me screaming "GREY GOOOOOO". In my head.

Because that is what it would look like.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6001 on: October 23, 2009, 09:22:53 pm »

Well I was thinking more around what IVAN does and less what Elona does.

Yes I hate saying "Lets do what another game did" as much as the next guy... but when you got something that works so well it is hard to go around it.

It has sparkles, stains, and rust for just about every object all visually represented. You don't need to read that an object is covered with blood or blood and water. You just have to look at it. You can even tell how wet it is.

There isn't any game I know of that does what IVAN does better.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 09:27:37 pm by Neonivek »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6002 on: October 23, 2009, 10:16:55 pm »

It has sparkles, stains, and rust for just about every object all visually represented. You don't need to read that an object is covered with blood or blood and water. You just have to look at it. You can even tell how wet it is.

That sounds interesting.  Do you happen to know how it's implemented?
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6003 on: October 23, 2009, 11:49:58 pm »

I think it just super imposes a set sprite onto the object without going out of bounds.

Either that or it just adds random splotches.

Rust, Blood, and Water all use the same visual style just different colors.

Sparkles is an animation that is set to appear in random places on the object

There are others... for example it has "Glow" which uses an object's outline.

To my knowledge it isn't source protected anyhow so you could check it out. I am hardly an expert.

If I am allowed to link you to a download Ill do that too. The game is crushingly difficult and in order to win the game you have to use an extensive source of spoilers. It also includes limb damage and loss but in a way I doubt Toady will ever support (as it is extremely complex in DFs case)
« Last Edit: October 23, 2009, 11:53:31 pm by Neonivek »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6004 on: October 24, 2009, 12:04:44 am »

To my knowledge it isn't source protected anyhow so you could check it out. I am hardly an expert.

If I am allowed to link you to a download Ill do that too. The game is crushingly difficult and in order to win the game you have to use an extensive source of spoilers. It also includes limb damage and loss but in a way I doubt Toady will ever support (as it is extremely complex in DFs case)

Thanks!  I went ahead and grabbed the source from the download page.  Found some relevant stuff (AddLiquidToPicture) in Main/Source/fluid.cpp.  It does look like the fluid pixels are randomly overlaid on the item tile, as you guessed, although I have no clue what's up with the Shadow stuff.

That approach could definitely work well in DF for item and terrain graphics, although handcrafted (non-random) overlays still might end up looking better.  Spatters are one area that really highlights the shortcomings of pure ASCII -- now that we have splatters of arbitrary materials, materials that could poison or cause burns, it's important to actively present that information to the player without menu crap, whether you draw a splatter on the item or take the more interactive-fiction-y approach of textually telling the player, "Here is a sword covered with dragon blood."  DF should probably do both, depending... how to bridge that gap might be good Suggestions fodder.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2009, 12:25:49 am by Footkerchief »
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6005 on: October 24, 2009, 12:10:06 am »

You can ask the forum yourself or the Unofficial forum www.attnam.com (which is more popular I don't know)

I don't know how helpful they would be though.
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G-Flex

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6006 on: October 24, 2009, 12:20:01 am »

I tried messing with IVAN's source code once and it was damn near impossible for me to comprehend any of it; it seemed like a complete mess to me, and a lot of it seemed to rely on weird hacks and probably a lot of compiler-specific stuff. Rather impenetrable, although some of it's certainly easier to understand than other parts. There are some things in it I simply couldn't find no matter how hard I looked, even when looking for the same of a specific function or some-such. It was weird.

IVAN does a good job of graphics, though. You get to follow enemies by following dynamic blood trails and stuff. One issue, though, is that anything with severable/damageable limbs is assumed to be humanoid in order for the graphics (and probably other things) to function properly. This would be a whole lot more difficult to accomplish if creatures could have arbitrary body parts like in DF, especially such finely-detailed ones.
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6007 on: October 24, 2009, 02:30:59 am »

I think I missed this from last time:

Quote from: Captain Mayday
[BODY_SIZE:0:0:10000000] - clearly related to body size, but what do the numbers do?
[HAS_NERVES] - Is this to create a central nervous system?
The function of these attack flags would be good to know as well:
   [ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC:100]
   [ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC:100]
   [ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE]

BODY_SIZE is <year:day:size>.  Size is formerly arbitrary, now it is cubic centimeters I think.  I used weight <-> water <-> volume for most of the animals, since volumes are harder to find.

HAS_NERVES says whether or not motor/sensory nerves can be damaged.

ATTACK_CONTACT_PERC says what size to use for the body part in the attack calculations, as a percentage of the part's total size.  It's all sort of iffy since everything is blobby (ie sizes are used in 1/2/3 dimensional calcs), so I either use 100 for things like punches/kicks and 1-10 for things like toothy bites.

ATTACK_PENETRATION_PERC says how deep the attack can penetrate versus body part size in the same way.

ATTACK_FLAG_EDGE tells the game to use whatever edge the body part material can support in the attack.  It either defaults to 50% or 100% of the theoretical maximum -- it should probably accept a number.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

--

It's quite possible I missed questions this time too, especially ones that weren't green.  Feel free to ask again.  I also skipped ones that I thought were handled in the discussion (thanks Footkerchief!)

Quote from: Sunday
Are some of the extracts (Golden Salve, frex) going to be able to cure/help cure certain venoms?  If you have a venom that shuts down something's heart, could you feed it an extract to kickstart the organ?

At some point this was the idea.  I'm not sure what the idea is with them now.  They continue to languish.

Quote from: HLBeta
Will it be possible to define blood as a body-pervasive tissue for the purposes of toxins and disease without creating targeting weirdness in combat? I understand that the current system can get at damage to blood cells and vessels in a roundabout fashion, but it would be pretty cool to have cyanide-style toxins that render the blood unable to carry oxygen (maim the blood?) without just directly killing the lungs.

I think combat weirdness would be inevitable.  If you drop the thickness of the tissue down to zero, it'll be skipped, but assigning any kind of useful properties to the tissue might be bad then.  It might be best to wait for me to get to the redded out Venom goals involving the body systems.

Quote from: Igfig
how do tissue layers interact with environmental effects, like temperature and gases?  Do outer layers insulate and protect inner ones?  Can poisons and wounds affect that by, say, changing tissue permeability or exposing inner ones?

Temperatures are still tracked by BP, so insulation uses tissue properties but still just determines the overall number.  There are some pervasive ramifications in extending it, so it's not necessarily an easy project.  Wounds have some exposure effects, but not on temperature.  I think contact poisons do a bit with it, but there are also some BP-pervasive effects where there shouldn't be.

Quote from: Mondark
Toady, will the new underground caverns affect the way goblins and dwarves build tunnels during worldgen?  In the current version, they'll build bridges over rivers or pits, do they still do this?

Also, will bottomless pits still look the same (giant cylindrical shafts,) or will they be more organically integrated with the new caverns?

Tunnels might be out for the time being until they play nice with layers.  The entire underground has changed in terms of pits/chasms/connections, though the square-by-square nature forced by time constraints + the tile map mean there are still squarish/roundish properties to some things.

Quote from: chaoticjosh
Will the currency in Dwarf Fortress ever receive an official name?

Reading the discussion, it seems like we are talking about the symbols instead of any of the actual currencies.  I dunno.  The symbols might be replaced by entity specific measurements, at which point there might no longer be a notion of absolute currency value.

Quote from: PermanentInk
What kind of effect are all these new caverns having on the pathfinding load?

Aside from the underground flying guys which I've got to fix anyway, it shouldn't make much of a difference unless there's flowing water cutting across them, since it'll have to do path components in the larger empty spaces at that time.  I'm going to have to play some longer games to poke around for unintended hiccups, but it's been good so far.

Quote from: Dame de la Licorne
With the addition of new skills (wrestling and health care being broken down into various sub-skills), will the embark skill point system (a) still be the same as in the current version (where we would assign points to say, wrestling, and the dwarf would automatically get points in all the associated sub-skills such as biting, kicking, punching, etc.) or (b) will we have to assign skill points to each of the new skills (so instead of assigning points to wrestling, we would assign points in each of punching, kicking, etc.)?  If (b) is the case, will the embark point system have been changed to make it easier (so that, for instance, we don't have to have a physician who can set broken bones at high level, but barely know how to suture a wound)?

I'm wondering if these sub skills show up in the embark skill list, and if so will the embark points and/or skill selection system be different in the new release.

Biting/kicking etc. aren't sub-skills of wrestling.  There used to be a single "unarmed" skill that has now been broken up into several skills.  There are skills like "archer" and "fighter" (I think those are the names), and these will pick up some slack, but there isn't anything really interesting going on yet.

Quote from: Hummingbird
With the fleshing out of inter-civ wars, are you planning to revise inter-race balance in war?  Specifically in the case of elves: will we in the near future see them actually win an offensive battle in Legends for once? 

I imagine when they are thinking a little bit more about things, it'll change a bit.  Elves in particular will need some advantages.  Right now, there are world gen skill caps that prevent them from using one of their only advantages (living forever in a relative safety compared to the murder-rich environment the immortal gobs have), so even the best elves are subpar compared to a better equipped dwarf or elf.  Their animal buddies are severely underutilized, and that will probably come up as well.  Not this around though, as inter-civ wars haven't gotten their revamp yet.

Quote from: Rockphed
Toady, are there still plants that grow underground like towercaps in the current version?  Also, will they still grow on muddied stone underground, or will they need real soil?  Do they just grow in the open layers, or will they grow anywhere underground?

There are still underground plants, and there are areas that start with them.  I haven't placed soil tiles deep underground, so they grow in mud.  I don't think it knows how to pull an underground plant population outside of a layer.  At this point things like tree farms aren't quite as important as before, since there are lots down there that will regrow, but it should probably learn how to extend to other subterranean layers at some point.  There are a few little issues like knowing where it should be drawing the spore populations from -- if you are in between a cavern and a magma layer, it should probably know that the cavern layer is always the source, but if you are in between two cavern layers but really really close to the upper one, it probably shouldn't give you spores from down below.  Perhaps an upper default is the best.

Quote from: Duke 2.0
So will versions of those massive caverns from a few months ago be the general replacement of our current caves or merely an addition?

The layers have forced a shrinking of caves, due to the way the features are currently set up, but there will still be caves connecting the outside to the inside.  The shrinking is probably welcome, since you can locate megabeasts more easily while still having the expansive layers to explore.  Right now, there aren't any dead-end caves that skip the top layer (unless you have no layers), but there should be.  I've made cave entrances a little better looking than the giant sinkhole things with stairs, but I'll still need actual cliffs before I can make neat entrances.  Right now I'm using fake cliff bulge things.

Quote from: smjjames
So, now that the aquifer behavior is somewhat different now, how are you handling quifers as far as saltwater goes? Since in real life, aquifers on islands are freshwater, although there would be some mixing along the coast.

Also, how are the caverns going to be handled as far as surface sources of infinite water? I'm mainly wondering about oceans and lakes as there may be a possibility of the cavern system breaching such features. Although a surface river plunging into a cavern would be pretty cool. Provided it doesn't catastrophically flood the caverns.

I wouldn't mind some caverns bieng partially flooded though.

It hasn't changed.  Some caverns have preexisting water.  Making the salinity/water grime variables work more sensibly has a processor/memory load problem, but the initial settings shouldn't be as hard to fix at some point.

Quote from: wilsonns
Will be possible to edit the adventurer apperance or at least know about his apperance?

You can look at yourself and others.  Changing the appearance would be an interface to write, which isn't the end of the day.  You should certainly be able to customize yourself later on, at least in one version of the start setup (versus historical scenarios or whatever), since it's good to be able to be whatever you want to be.  It'll probably depend on prodding or just me eventually doing it.  Since you pick out where you are from first, it'll probably be constrained by the entity/race settings, with options to break convention or something.  Breaking reality (ie making a blue-skinned human) is more difficult because of how the appearance variables are indexed, and there might even be some issues there with breaking out of entity stylings, though I don't think there are.

Quote from: Grek
How does the [DRAGONFIREBREATH] tag work now? Is it going to be replaced with a poison breathe that burns people?

It's still the same as ever.  It is hot.  Fire is kind of a weird thing.  The critters that are made from fire have a weird material for it, but the breath is still a materialless flow.

Quote from: Chronas
Toady, which release are you intending to implement custom fluids?

I have no idea.  They aren't crucial to anything, so it's just going to be an act of excess when it happens.  It's something I often want to do, but the technical stumbling blocks which will potential slow down the flow code are the thing stopping me from suddenly doing it.  Getting the flows to run at a decent speed and getting them to interact with each other in any way (instead of just the magma/water interaction) are the issues.

Quote from: Kennel
Could it be possible to get full list of different dwarven features (face shape, body build, hairstyle etc.)? I can get most(?) of them from 08/08/2009 update, but it might be handy to have some kind of word of god list. This would help developing visualizers.

It'd take a bit of time to distill it down, so for now I'll just throw a raw at you.  It's still preliminary in a few ways, mostly just the fingernails, but I haven't done my last-minute check on it before the release.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Quote from: smjjames
Toady, I know you don't want to spoil the underground stuff, but could you at least let us know about the rope ladder type thing? As that is well known and probably important (if not critical) for the cavern stuff.

It's still white, so I haven't done the consider part yet.  The main hurdle is the multi-z nature of such things, since all buildings currently reside on a single z level and the ramifications of that are quite pervasive, so there is quite a temptation to flub at this point, rather than engage in what could be a relatively long rewrite.

Quote from: Quatch
I've plenty of mods that add things like coloured glass, which is all well and good, until your nobles demand ONLY blue glass. Could mandates be less specific sometimes (glass object, rather than specific type of glass object, or specific colour of glass object)?

Glass is currently odd in that each glass is a separate material, so it hasn't been possible.  Now there's a "is glass" flag for the material definitions, but I don't think mandates have been updated to support that flag.  I'll do one or the other for this time:  get rid of glass mandates or support the general mandate.  I think getting rid of them would be easier until there's better local material detection (Req452).

Quote from: Footkerchief
I was thinking about the swamp-water grime mentioned in DF Talk 3, and it occurred to me that, while having grime on your skin should certainly raise the chance of an infection, getting gunk inside wounds should be even worse.  Does the game have any notion of grime getting inside wounds, or just a general grime level?

It checks the grime level on the body part versus the body part where the wound is located, but it doesn't jam the grime inside the wound specifically, so it doesn't matter if the grime was there before or after the wound happened.  Specific contaminant syndromes have more information about their wounds (such as a poison on a blade) so it can control local effects more sensibly, but I don't think contaminants themselves know about that.

Quote from: Neoskel
Will it be possible (not necessarily in the upcoming version) to have a site directly affiliated with a particular guild/religion/other political entity? Like a training center for the mining guild or a commune of pilgrims or something like that.

Every site has an entity affiliation independent of the type of entity.  It just always happens to be one of the site-style "group" ones now.  It kind of points to the decision making capacity of groups again.  Once an entity's various responsibility holders can make decisions, it should make this sort of thing more relevant to throw on the queue.  I need to do that before I improve sieges, so hopefully I'll have more and more precise answers for questions like this soonish.

Quote from: smjjames
Since an exploration team of dwarves (or whatever race you're playing) could take a season or more to return to base, will there be a way to have them gather food or whatever or will it be limited to how much they can stuff into the backpacks and how many waterskins they can carry?

You'd have to micromanage it right now, with base camps and so on.  If some seems ultra-necessary, I'll probably put it in before the release.  I haven't gotten a chance to run a long exploration yet.

Quote from: Demonic Gophers
Will the new control over z-levels influence adventure mode?  Will flying creatures have some actual sky to work with, even in flat areas?

The constraint I lifted was the overall z-size of the cube that the loaded world fits in, but sky allocations still only happen when needed.  So as you build your giant tower, it allocates more levels.  That doesn't happen in adventure mode.  It needs to be able to semi-allocate areas or understand what it means to be in an empty allocated space above the ground before the fliers are more satisfying, and there are various hurdles there.

Quote
Quote from: SirPenguin
What are the current average heights for the sky z-levels and the ground z-levels?

I know you have specifically mentioned in the past how the 15 z-level thing is "gone", and we've seen screenshots of layers that are 40, 50, 60 levels deep. But where did you end up landing when deciding on the default values?
Quote from: Puzzlemaker
So I am assuming that underground features can take place at those extra allocated Z-Levels, right?
Quote from: Footkerchief
Presumably it'll try to space out the underground "layers" among the available Z-levels.

The number of sky z-levels can now be set, but they vary as they do in 40d based on the total elevation differences on your map.  The number of ground z-levels depends on how you've got your layers set up.  You can determine the spacing, and elevation differences on the map also spread the layers out (it has to guarantee that they don't hit each other).  If you add extra spacing, it can be used for layers, but it's mostly for adding some rock.  If you space out two of the cavern layers, connecting features like pits and internal vertical caves will be much larger.

Quote from: smjjames
Oh yea, what is the cave diggers thing all about? I thought digging creatures weren't really implemented in this release?

Right now (40d), mining entities expand their site sizes over world gen years, and that impacted their generated size.  It's not crucial, but there are a few things I need to look at there regardless, with how the caves are expanded out.  It shouldn't be super long when I get to it.

Quote from: skaltum
hey tarn(toady) any chance of the peotry generater you threatened us with on the dev pages?  ;) in this release or the next one?

I have a lot to do with language first before I'm able to do that.  I think the list on dev_next has to be done in order, but I do want to get that started (not for this release) just so I can have names outside the current format.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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InsanityPrelude

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6008 on: October 24, 2009, 02:58:57 am »

Holycrap, these new raws are detailed.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6009 on: October 24, 2009, 03:04:06 am »

This is so incredibly awesome.

One question though;

Regarding
Quote from: smjjames
Since an exploration team of dwarves (or whatever race you're playing) could take a season or more to return to base, will there be a way to have them gather food or whatever or will it be limited to how much they can stuff into the backpacks and how many waterskins they can carry?

You'd have to micromanage it right now, with base camps and so on.  If some seems ultra-necessary, I'll probably put it in before the release.  I haven't gotten a chance to run a long exploration yet.

I think I missed something, but what's this referring to? I'm guesing sending dwarves into the caves?
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Chronas

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6010 on: October 24, 2009, 03:05:50 am »

Another beautiful wall of text!

Dwarf Fortress: now with 150% more liver.
And optional female beards in one easy-to-manage format!
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It should be pretty fun though.

Toady One

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6011 on: October 24, 2009, 03:07:13 am »

There isn't anything super-special going on, like sending dwarves off the map, but just using squads to press into the new unexplored area/fog of war thing.  At least I think that's what the subject was, since you might spend several days if not a month on an expedition down there.

If it was about going off the map, then I'm not really sure how food and all that would work.  I imagine foraging would be an option.  I'm hoping to have supplies for armies because I think it makes wars and so on more interesting.
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Osmosis Jones

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6012 on: October 24, 2009, 03:09:24 am »

Fair enough.  :P
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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6013 on: October 24, 2009, 05:12:17 am »

There isn't anything super-special going on, like sending dwarves off the map, but just using squads to press into the new unexplored area/fog of war thing.  At least I think that's what the subject was, since you might spend several days if not a month on an expedition down there.

If it was about going off the map, then I'm not really sure how food and all that would work.  I imagine foraging would be an option.  I'm hoping to have supplies for armies because I think it makes wars and so on more interesting.

It was about exploring the caverns and expanding the fog of war down there, or removing it rather.
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Grax

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #6014 on: October 24, 2009, 05:23:30 am »

There isn't anything super-special going on, like sending dwarves off the map, but just using squads to press into the new unexplored area/fog of war thing.  At least I think that's what the subject was, since you might spend several days if not a month on an expedition down there.

If it was about going off the map, then I'm not really sure how food and all that would work.  I imagine foraging would be an option.  I'm hoping to have supplies for armies because I think it makes wars and so on more interesting.

It would be great to have a feature to take the miner/builder/smith into the army to mine ore, build smelters and smith/repair weapons in the wilds during the conquest expedition.
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