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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 2116423 times)

Martin

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10920 on: January 23, 2010, 05:06:42 pm »

but then we'd have hundreds of dogs, cats, horses, and cows waiting at the rope for it to *open* and making pathfinding calculations with our processors on their free time

He could just fix the pet door pathing bug, you know.

Hummingbird

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10921 on: January 23, 2010, 05:10:16 pm »

I propose a truly dorfy solution: toady should implement a special helmet that (mostly) protects against fall damage, so that the toughest dwarves of the fortress can take the 10-z level jump down, pick and axe in hand, and construct stairs back up to the upper levels.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10922 on: January 23, 2010, 05:14:37 pm »

but then we'd have hundreds of dogs, cats, horses, and cows waiting at the rope for it to *open* and making pathfinding calculations with our processors on their free time

He could just fix the pet door pathing bug, you know.

Toady has said that it would require the pathing rewrite to do this.

@Hummingbird: Or even use spelunking equipment.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 05:17:16 pm by smjjames »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10923 on: January 23, 2010, 05:30:07 pm »

He could just fix the pet door pathing bug, you know.

Toady has said that it would require the pathing rewrite to do this.

I'd like to see the quote.  The bug is rooted in the current pathing system, yes, but it should be possible to hack in some kind of quick fix, like a cooldown timer on pet pathing requests.
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Neonivek

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10924 on: January 23, 2010, 05:34:01 pm »

No the only fix is actually to ensure that pets and people have their own pathing.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10925 on: January 23, 2010, 05:34:10 pm »

@Footkerchief: Yoink!

Quote from: various
rope-climbing animal fixes

It's more of a technical matter.  I know how to check for grasps, etc., but it doesn't matter.  There will be catastrophic lag if animals can't climb ropes, since the game can't handle path restrictions that don't affect everybody (locked doors, etc.), once you are down to dwarf-style movement.  The sorts of general, sweeping pathfinding rewrites which will need to happen eventually but which are incredibly time-consuming are the only fix here.

I used this in a post of mine a bunch of pages back, took a bit of skilling up in search-fu to find. Its the most relevant quote that I know of anyway.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 05:35:46 pm by smjjames »
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10926 on: January 23, 2010, 05:50:00 pm »

yeh, it's the same problem that causes fliyers to not path into your base and over your walls, they figure its inaccesssible, so they don't even try. if they thought they could reach you, then your dwarves would also figure they could fly, and would try to path over your walls to inaccessible places

Shoku

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10927 on: January 23, 2010, 05:58:13 pm »

As long as the Underground cannot become so vast as to make digging down to pockets impossible I guess holding back on ladders and ropes is viable.

Though allowing Stairs to be built straight down could also be a good placemat.
T_T

perhaps if ropes werent used in pathfinding calculations and dwarves wouldn't use them for normal movement, only if we specifically told them to use them.

That would be ideal but for the fact that we can't tell individual dorfs where to go, save for military ones.  Otherwise you're basically talking about keeping them "locked" which as we know doesn't help when it comes to pathfinding.



well, think with me, you build a rope in an open space next to a floor, then with (q) you go into it's (P)ermissions menu and select a dwarf or a few or any, then you (a)dd a new task and select climb (d)own, or something. it may be a little clumsy, but it's the dwarven way

Okay, but then how are you going to select a dwarf or more than one and then make them go over if they aren't military? We don't have that kind of control.

That control setup would be fine in adventure mode and if you intend to use it like an airlock for military, that could work, but if you intend to use it in a high traffic area, it becomes extremely impratical.

AFAIK, even 'normal' movement requires pathfinding, so there is just no escaping the pathfinding issue.
A rope ladder seems like really bad news for high traffic anyway. You couldn't even lay down to let other guys go over you.

Lol, well yea, I would too.

I was using that as a hypothetical example to illustrate my point. Even though it would be inefficent and cause lag because of the chokepoint.
Well we already use multiple stairs for high traffic areas so if you had ladders dwarves used automatically but only one at a time you'd just need to build many.

No I meant to say Placemat

But Placeholder could have been a better word. Mostly I meant a temporary solution for a problem that will be fixed at a later date.
I have never heard placemat used like that. Placemat makes me think or that thing in front of a door to the house that's sort of like "here's where the house begins as if the door wasn't enough of a clue."

-now that I think about it if we were going to have a manual use rope ladder why not just make a manual use pit you can order dwarves into? With a little planning it would be easy enough to get a dwarf down to the flood to start building stairs up and if there's such immediate danger that they can't they probably wouldn't perform a job to climb the ladder either. For tall caverns the fall might be a problem but judging by the experiment screenshots you could find a safer drop.

but then we'd have hundreds of dogs, cats, horses, and cows waiting at the rope for it to *open* and making pathfinding calculations with our processors on their free time

He could just fix the pet door pathing bug, you know.
So you mean a big rewrite that's not like the "simpler" solutions we're discussing?

Yes. He can do something complex that will take a lot of work but make the game better. I expect he will. I expect that until the ladder item on the list is concluded we won't shut up about ways he could get the game out to us faster.

He could just fix the pet door pathing bug, you know.

Toady has said that it would require the pathing rewrite to do this.

I'd like to see the quote.  The bug is rooted in the current pathing system, yes, but it should be possible to hack in some kind of quick fix, like a cooldown timer on pet pathing requests.
Do you think you could do away with the simplified pathfinding if you just made them stand around for a bit if they had their path interrupted twice in a row?

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Untelligent

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10928 on: January 23, 2010, 06:05:55 pm »

I can't think of any reason not to just make stairs buildable downward.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10929 on: January 23, 2010, 06:14:06 pm »

well first because it's fisically absurd, the most you could do is to throw rubble down the open space and hope it'll pile up into a nice litle ramp

Diablous

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10930 on: January 23, 2010, 06:22:55 pm »

Think its just as a placeholder till rope ladders are worked out, but you have a point.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10931 on: January 23, 2010, 06:23:52 pm »

I can't think of any reason not to just make stairs buildable downward.

Metal stairs, possibly, with safe, portable welding (which I don't think would be tech-appropriate), but stone stairs? Should atleast still require extensive use of ropes/chains. Possibly also mortar/concrete.

It seems to me like you could take a large tree, knock the branches and bark off it, cut hand/footholds into it, and then drop it down whatever hole, hoping it'll reach the bottom safely and securely. Then your dwarfs could climb up and down it readily. 

That could be done without rope (although not nearly as well--one would atleast hope for a plumb-line), or any modern/additional technology (it's not really a ladder, just basically a giant wooden carving), but ofcourse it would have it's limits, and would work a lot better with multiple Z level trees.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10932 on: January 23, 2010, 06:25:26 pm »

that would be a ladder, right? english is not my first language
« Last Edit: January 23, 2010, 06:37:38 pm by Askot Bokbondeler »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10933 on: January 23, 2010, 06:29:36 pm »

that would be a ladder, right? english is not my first language

Only vaguely. Made of the same substance and put to the same use, but a bit like comparing a castle and a doublewide trailer.
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Askot Bokbondeler

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #10934 on: January 23, 2010, 06:37:58 pm »

uh, i hadn't read the part that you said it's not really a ladder, but if it doesn't let animals use it, then it faces the same problem than rope\ladders
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