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Author Topic: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items  (Read 3583376 times)

Head Hunter

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11250 on: January 26, 2010, 02:45:56 pm »

 "01/25/2010: 40d17 was in worse shape than I thought (my fault), so I'll be continuing to clean that up again tomorrow."

 Hell, I'd be happy with just a cleaned up copy of 40d17, after almost 1 1/2 years, for awhile, as long as tiles still worked with it ;) Waiting (im)patiently here!

 HH
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Cruxador

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11251 on: January 26, 2010, 02:51:59 pm »

Quote from: lordcooper
With the whole random creature thing, can adamantine be chosen as a material?

I don't think that happens...  it would be unfortunate for you if it does, although I guess a giant steel critter is almost as bad, except that it can be limbed by adamantine swords...  or at least toed.  It depends on the size.
[/spoiler]
Question:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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slink

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11252 on: January 26, 2010, 02:57:16 pm »

One thing about the workshop that puzzled me is that for a given dimension of 3 x 3, the symbols and colors along one axis are defined 0 - 3, and along the other are defined 1 - 3.  This could be an error or a special feature having to do with animation, or something else completely.
85% on the 0-3 index being the multiple stages of construction.

Would make the maps readable, as they're in 3x3 blocks right now.

Aha!  That makes sense.  :)
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11253 on: January 26, 2010, 02:59:06 pm »

"Ruler" is kind of ambiguous, which one did you mean?  All the ones I saw had NUMBER:1, not NUMBER:AS_NEEDED.
I meant the equivalent of monarchs, there. So a position like the roman consuls would have NUMBER:2. Obviously, that depends on a few other things, such as how things are handled in dwarf mode.

The only way I see to achieve this is with REPLACED_BY -- the regular monarch (normal castes only) gets replaced by the emperor (ancestral caste only).  As long as the positions have the same requirements (other than caste), I expect that the replacement will happen as soon as a suitable Ancestral Dwarf comes along.
Yeah, REPLACED_BY is certainly part of the equation. What I'm wary of is things like the monarch position being replaced when there isn't a suitable dwarf around, perhaps because the emperor caste can be restricted by caste, but can't have that caste as a prerequisite.
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11254 on: January 26, 2010, 03:04:30 pm »

DO we know anything about how the new material changes will impact weapons? i.e., will adamantium be a bad material for hammers now, since it's so light? Will the best hammers just be made from whatever's densest?
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Salabasama

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11255 on: January 26, 2010, 03:08:12 pm »

Quote from: Toady
Quote from: Neonivek
Toady with the mythos/plot generator, will it be possible for it to set up Armagedon scenarios or at least situations where the mass destruction of the world is possible? Both in World Generation and when the player is involved (afterall the world ending during World Gen would be boring outside of the planes arc).
-I am mostly reminded of one person's failed attept to break into the HFS. His fortress was destroyed and the demons that poured out and proceeded to destroy much of the world due to the sheer number of powerful beings.

Originally, we had a few broad arcs for a world's life.  There were the fading out ones (which is most like the current system, just because nothing comes back), the marches toward apocalypse, the cyclic ones, and the sort of "gothic" style where there's an established order and you just sort of cower against it on the bottom rung.  That kind of division is no longer in the cards really, but the notion of having powerful forces and established metaphysical facts like a predestined ending to the world are all still floating around.  I guess it would be amusing if the world ended during world gen -- it would just be a reject, he he he.  In terms of the demons and all that, once the pre-siege individuals are thinking about things, both anything you've released and the mega beasts and so on will begin to be more than just random attack events, which should be cool.

For world end events, have you been pondering an ammusing variety of things, or just a sudden "you have dug too deep" sort of thing?  It'd be neat if, for instance, the legends said the world would drown in Armok's blood, and in a certain year, magma pours from the sky, eliminating all civilization/surface life.  Though, the average player fortress would most likely survive, as long as it had a ceiling.  Of course, I can't really think of a way to spread water in such a way that you could make a tunnel to the surface of the magma, so the dwarves would be trapped until the entire world cooled into a dead, uninteresting, uniform obsidian sphere.  :D  Thanks, yo.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11256 on: January 26, 2010, 03:16:55 pm »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Question:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Being "limbed" and "toed" means, in this context, your limb or toe getting amputated by said swords.  Also, your spoiler tag is broken (I fixed it in this quote).

I meant the equivalent of monarchs, there. So a position like the roman consuls would have NUMBER:2. Obviously, that depends on a few other things, such as how things are handled in dwarf mode.

Oh, I misunderstood.  For some reason I thought you were pointing out a bad tag in the dwarf positions.

Yeah, REPLACED_BY is certainly part of the equation. What I'm wary of is things like the monarch position being replaced when there isn't a suitable dwarf around, perhaps because the emperor caste can be restricted by caste, but can't have that caste as a prerequisite.

I don't quite follow -- would it be good or bad for the monarch position to be reinstated in the absence of an Ancestral Dwarf?  And what's the distinction between a caste restriction and a prerequisite caste?

DO we know anything about how the new material changes will impact weapons? i.e., will adamantium be a bad material for hammers now, since it's so light? Will the best hammers just be made from whatever's densest?

Adamantine is a bad material for hammers, yeah:

Quote from: Toady One
In terms of adamantine weapons, the edge and shear properties mean it will be able to slice through steel for example quite easily, even though the low density means that it won't be effective in bludeoning weapons.

However, the weapon's mass (along with your strength) also affects the speed of the swing.  So a lead hammer might end up being too heavy for the average dwarf to wield effectively, depending on how all that balances out.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 03:18:50 pm by Footkerchief »
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Knight Otu

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11257 on: January 26, 2010, 03:38:09 pm »

I don't quite follow -- would it be good or bad for the monarch position to be reinstated in the absence of an Ancestral Dwarf?  And what's the distinction between a caste restriction and a prerequisite caste?
Well, I guess that's essentially my question - is there such a distinction? In my mind, a caste restriction would be a position that can only be filled by a certain caste, while a prerequisite caste would enable positions that aren't necessarily filled with members of that caste.
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smjjames

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11258 on: January 26, 2010, 03:41:00 pm »

Even though steel and iron would be about the same effectiveness (steel would be more durable), iron would possibly be preferred because its cheaper.

When it comes to edged weapons, there will probably be a bigger difference.
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gtmattz

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11259 on: January 26, 2010, 03:44:16 pm »

Yes but in what order?

Toady doesn't want this
Make Blocks, Set blocks, engrave blocks

But that is the traditional way that us lowly real life humans have been doing it for thousands of years, I don't see why imaginary dwarves shouldn't be able to do so?
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11260 on: January 26, 2010, 04:04:32 pm »

DO we know anything about how the new material changes will impact weapons? i.e., will adamantium be a bad material for hammers now, since it's so light? Will the best hammers just be made from whatever's densest?

Adamantine is a bad material for hammers, yeah:

Quote from: Toady One
In terms of adamantine weapons, the edge and shear properties mean it will be able to slice through steel for example quite easily, even though the low density means that it won't be effective in bludeoning weapons.

However, the weapon's mass (along with your strength) also affects the speed of the swing.  So a lead hammer might end up being too heavy for the average dwarf to wield effectively, depending on how all that balances out.

Yikes, now I'm thoroughly confused. So is adamantine still good for armor? If it isn't cuttable, but bludgeoning attacks transfer all their force through it, does that mean you'd want an outer layer of adamantine plate with chain and leather of other materials underneath, or an outer layer of, say, steel plate, with adamantine chain underneath?

Another question: is leather from different animals going to make substantively different leather armor now? i.e., would giant cave spider chitin leather armor be "better" than cow leather armor, or would it be "different" (harder, less elastic, whatever) ?
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Sean Mirrsen

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11261 on: January 26, 2010, 04:07:17 pm »

Now that all those materials can be assigned different properties - yeah, I'd expect you'll get different armor from different critters. Note that it's not actually known whether those properties are already assigned - it seems like quite a lot of work, so Toady likely used templates and many creatures' leather is similar in properties.
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Footkerchief

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11262 on: January 26, 2010, 04:15:33 pm »

Yikes, now I'm thoroughly confused. So is adamantine still good for armor? If it isn't cuttable, but bludgeoning attacks transfer all their force through it, does that mean you'd want an outer layer of adamantine plate with chain and leather of other materials underneath, or an outer layer of, say, steel plate, with adamantine chain underneath?

Adamantine should still provide some protection from blunt weapons, but yeah, it may become important to double up on armor:

I was thinking of adding a padded shirt item thingy that you'd often want under your breastplates, as bludgeoning damage should be fairly brutal now regardless of the breastplate, but we'll have to see how that plays out.

(this has historical precedent, for anyone who's wondering)

Another question: is leather from different animals going to make substantively different leather armor now? i.e., would giant cave spider chitin leather armor be "better" than cow leather armor, or would it be "different" (harder, less elastic, whatever) ?
Now that all those materials can be assigned different properties - yeah, I'd expect you'll get different armor from different critters. Note that it's not actually known whether those properties are already assigned - it seems like quite a lot of work, so Toady likely used templates and many creatures' leather is similar in properties.

Yeah, it's all possible now, but I doubt Toady's done much with it, aside from obvious cases like dragon leather.

Lung tissue template:
Code: [Select]
[CONNECTS]
[TISSUE_SHAPE:LAYER]

Interesting.  I'm guessing CONNECTS means either that it won't leak out, or that it keeps adjacent layers attached to each other (i.e. the fat connects the skin to the muscle).  For TISSUE_SHAPE, though, I have no idea.

Dwarf positions (hammerer item is currently busted and not in there, general had an issue and world-level military ones are basically meaningless, take them with a grain of salt, but this is basically it):
Code: [Select]
[POSITION:GENERAL]
[COMMANDER:LIEUTENANT:ALL]
[POSITION:LIEUTENANT]
[COMMANDER:CAPTAIN:ALL]
[POSITION:CAPTAIN]
[SQUAD:10:soldier:soldiers]

Meaningless or not, it seems deeply wrong to have lieutenants above captains.  I guess they're more like lieutenant generals.

Code: [Select]
[REACTION:MAKE_SOAP]
[REAGENT:A:1:BARREL:NONE:NONE:NONE][CONTAINS_LYE]
[REAGENT:B:1:GLOB:NONE:NONE:NONE][REACTION_CLASS:RENDERED_FAT][UNROTTEN]
[HAS_MATERIAL_REACTION_PRODUCT:SOAP_MAT]

CONTAINS_LYE, ack.  So close and yet so far... that UNROTTEN flag will come in handy for food reactions, though.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2010, 07:57:29 pm by Footkerchief »
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Calenth

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11263 on: January 26, 2010, 04:20:17 pm »


Adamantine should still provide some protection from blunt weapons, but yeah, it may become important to double up on armor:

I was thinking of adding a padded shirt item thingy that you'd often want under your breastplates, as bludgeoning damage should be fairly brutal now regardless of the breastplate, but we'll have to see how that plays out.

(this has historical precedent, for anyone who's wondering)

Yeah, I've always liked the way DF made you double up underneath plate for exactly that reason. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how much difference the different metal factors make for armor. Are different metals going to be better for chainmail and others for plate? Or with armor is it just hardness that counts, essentially?


Yeah, it's all possible now, but I doubt Toady's done much with it, aside from obvious cases like dragon leather.

Yeah, right after I wrote that I went "duh, fire imp leather." I guess the real question is whether or not wearing a full body suit of fire imp leather (including mask?) will make your dwarf immune/resistant to things like dragon's fire breath or not.
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kaypy

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Re: Future of the Fortress: List of Remaining Items
« Reply #11264 on: January 26, 2010, 04:32:02 pm »

Again, with the above quote in mind, I didn't see the Advisor...is he out?  Do the raws also indicate that we will now house the diplomat and liason if we get the king, or are those just for current civ level stuff right now?
At the moment the Advisor is what you call the Liason when they're at the mountainhome instead of roaming the countryside. So I imagine not having a separate entry in the new raws implies the same will be happening (although whether it will handle the name change is an open question).

Yeah, right after I wrote that I went "duh, fire imp leather." I guess the real question is whether or not wearing a full body suit of fire imp leather (including mask?) will make your dwarf immune/resistant to things like dragon's fire breath or not.
Wait, doesn't fire imp leather just set you on fire without any dragonly assistance required?
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