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[Flaede]

It shouldn't be unreasonable for somebody to write a universal theory of relativity

wait.. what?

[G-Flex]

I don't think he knows what "relativity" (in terms of science) is.

[mickel]

On the note of failure, perhaps instead of a new wave of emigrants, or the occasional reformed case of mellancholly, something new could arise. A dark monk, shunned by the mine for failing to produce a wonder. An evil man with a group of unhappy cohorts, a craftsdwarf who works only in dwarf bone.

Instead of a single killer, a sinister faction preying on peasants, pets, and merchants.

That would tie in beautifully with the religion stuff coming in too. I can see cults forming around artifacts...

[Felblood]

I meant, of course, a general theory of relativity. --not that that isn't kind of redundant, if you think about it.

Blood. Give them a random theory name generator.

"Urish McThink, Philosopher has created the Universal Theory of Cats, a brilliant philosophical concept!"

[Sowelu]

Relativity is a specific concept in physics, the kind of physics we had no way to measure or even really consider until very recently...

And I don't know about berserk dwarves, but maybe this'd work better on melancholy ones.

[anyar]

Relativity is a specific concept in physics, the kind of physics we had no way to measure or even really consider until very recently...

And I don't know about berserk dwarves, but maybe this'd work better on melancholy ones.

The personality and mood of the philosopher should influence the efficacy of their counseling though. I can't really see a nihilist helping a depressed person get better.

[Felblood]

Blood! It's not meant to be literal!

Here, let me state my case more plainly, as my intentionally anachronistic example appears to be muddying the issue more than I expected:

1. Dwarf comes up with an idea. It doesn't really matter what it is.; the Universal Theory of Cats can state that "a cat in motion will always interfere with traffic, given enough time." So long as the dwarves buy into it, it doesn't even need to be correct.

2. The dwarves buy into it. The dwarf who came up with the idea wins the gratitude and respect of you civilization for the rest of his life.

3. The dwarf becomes a professional philosopher, living on a generous allowance with room and board, from a ruler who wants the prestige of having such an esteemed philosopher in his court.

4. Life goes on.

The only real point is to explain where philosophers come from. You could just as easily say that they are titleless noblemen who spent a few years at a university, so they wouldn't have to dirty their hands to live, like commoners.

--and yeah, I don't really see dwarven philosophers as providing valuable counseling for the mentally disturbed, not most of them anyway.

If philosophers do take up debating as a passtime, I could see their high persuasion skills being useful for talking down tantruming dwarves, but once you've gone mad, really high quality intimidation is probably the only thing that should be able to keep you in line.

[Silverionmox]

Relativity is a specific concept in physics, the kind of physics we had no way to measure or even really consider until very recently...

And I don't know about berserk dwarves, but maybe this'd work better on melancholy ones.

The personality and mood of the philosopher should influence the efficacy of their counseling though. I can't really see a nihilist helping a depressed person get better.

Although quantum mechanics boil down to the age-old philosophical question: if a tree falls in the wood and there's no one there, does it make a sound?

A nihilist would certainly help! It's impossible to disappoint a pessimist. A sense of failure quite commonly has its roots in unrealistically high goals.

[Flaede]

Relativity is a specific concept in physics, the kind of physics we had no way to measure or even really consider until very recently...

And I don't know about berserk dwarves, but maybe this'd work better on melancholy ones.

The personality and mood of the philosopher should influence the efficacy of their counseling though. I can't really see a nihilist helping a depressed person get better.

Maybe not "better". Maybe they stay melancholy, they just don't ever jump of a bridge or anything. They keep drinking your booze, they just don't do work, they just mope around all emo-like (what does an emo beard look like?) and drink. ANd maybe create an artifact book of their "theories".

oh... and their moping of course makes dwarves around them depressed. it'd be an anti-social skill.

[SirHoneyBadger]

"If a tree falls in the wood and there's no one there, does it make a sound?"

As sound is quantifiable as a wave, and as the tree falling produces sound waves, then yes, it does make a sound.

Sound, as an object, has more qualities than just a noise that's picked up by our ears. The right frequency can shatter glass, for instance. If sound can do that, then it can have a discrete and measurable effect on atoms and sub-atomic particles, etc. thus rendering it as having as valid an existence as any other applied force.

That's what I think, anyway 

[Granite26]

<shakes head>

No, like... Shroedinger's cat...  You can't observe quantum mechanics without affecting the outcome.

That is, just because it makes a soundwave when you are listening doesn't mean that it still makes a soundwave when you aren't.  There's no possible way to measure without you affecting the system.

It's like trying to measure the length of a car, but everytime you put the ruler up to it, it changes size.
As far as the koan goes, if you define sound as being the same as pressure waves in the air, that's true.  The riddle is that it sound doesn't really exist unless it's percieved.  Until then it's just vibrations in the air.  (as one possible answer, there's lots)

[tsen]

In regard to the OP, the idea of the philosopher doing something useful is awesome. Perhaps the noble himself doesn't so it, but based on personality traits and such a dwarf might occasionally join the "circle" of the philospher and be assigned an office/work area and be granted access to a unique profession like doctor or psychologist. Granted dwarves don't sound like they would have shrinks necessarily, but the idea is cool.

Seperate idea: religious ceremonies could cure some forms of insanity with purifying rituals, which would cost money or resources or both, and might even be paid for by the congregation, the dwarf's friends or lover/wife or maybe even by him or herself if he/she had enough money built up before going wacko.

I love the idea of police force actually doing something, but there is definitely the issue that since we only have 100 dwarves to work with, having 15 of them bound up in a psycho cult might be a problem, especially if one of them happens to end up being your legendary armorsmith.

[Flaede]

I like the cult idea.
a problem? it would be FUN!

And the "Philosopher's Circle" idea... wow. just wow. I like it.
Makes me think of an old book I wuite liked called Westmark - in it, of course, the Philosopher's circle happens to be a secret cabal of revolutionaries... but hey, offing the nobility isn't necessarily a bd outcome, is it? You might have to thwart/help them depending on how ridiculous the demands of the nobles are.

[tsen]

Allow me to be more precise: secret cults would be *awesome*, I just would like to have a larger population base to work with so that they *can* murder people occasionally and be ruthlessly and bloodily purged without completely destroying the fortress. =D Well, there has to be some chance or it wouldn't be DF, but I wouldn't want guaranteed destruction.

[Felblood]

While a melancholic dwarf should be able to dodge suicide through comforting counseling (--though I see this as more the mayor, manager and happy care dwarf's positions than the philosopher's. Why does the philosopher have to do anything beside philosophy?), and maybe even recover, thorough rituals, medicine or simply finding his way in life, a mad dwarf is a different proposition.

Once you've gone mad, the city guard should gang up on you, wrestle you to the ground, and lock you in a sanitarium. Whether you scrawl under appreciated manifestos on the walls with your own blood, after that, is your own affair. Not that it wouldn't be awesome, but I just don't see society suddenly deciding that your ravings are actually brilliant and letting you out, until after you die.

Fifty years after you kick the bucket your works can be appreciated, by people who weren't alive to see you rip out your son's spleen and eat it.

E: Oh, and cult's should love demented ravings. Your maifesto could get copied down into an actual book, once you've been carried out of the blood smeared cell, and that book could become an artifact warred over by demon worshipers and the cults of the gods of Outside.

The churches of the gods of your world should work to destroy these books, both for the damage he cults that grow up around them, and just maybe, for the things they might call out to.