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[Gorjo MacGrymm]

That sounds nice and intellectual Fellblood, but the concept your going for is a known philisophical trap.  If it may not exist unless its observed, but the observer may not exist either because no one can observe the observer without themselves being observed.....mean nothing is ever real.  It is a philisophical dead end.  All real philosophy must use something as real/concrete/existing to base/begin (I think therefore I am - ack - maybe to derivitive) its philosophy upon, thereby theorizing/determining its possible natures.  The argument that "but you cant prove it exists" ends all argument or debate and wont win any prizes with philosophers because there is no room for any other possibility.

Reasonable doubt does not carry any weight in your argument.  Please try to tell a jury that its not reasonable to believe they didnt exist until you saw them in the court room and that a murder victim doesnt exist because the jury cant see him/her.  But wait, you might say, there are pictures, but those are not real.  Fabrications of something that cant be proven to exist based on your argument.

My statement about sound vs noise is basic.  Ask any scientist.
My statement about the philisophical trap is basic.  Ask any philosopher.

I could go on and on, but I gotta goto work (assuming I am real and my job actually exists).

GMcG

PS:  I love philosophy, and I am not necessarily a realist/pragmatist. Like all people, I have many views/beliefs that may seem to be contradictory.  I have often said that sometimes certain things dont seem real to me until I see/experience them myself.  So, me=hypocrit 

[Granite26]

I think therefor I am is the only statement that CAN'T be doubted.

I can't prove you exist, I can't prove my body exists, I can't prove I existed yesterday and I can't prove I'll exist tomorrow.

Yeah Reductionism!!!

[Felblood]

See. It looks childish and silly at first glance, but there's a lot of layers of subtlety to it, and lot's of takes and re-takes on these things.

You don't have to produce anything useful or even meaningful to be a very productive philosopher.

So long as the contents of the box exist during the periods you are observing them, the question of whether they exist between those periods is largely irrelevant to the common man.

[bjlong]

1) Quantum Mechanics says that observing something changes its state--you cannot carry out the box argument if your box gets much smaller than a centimeter.

2) You can doubt that you think if you believe Nietzsche (IIRC). He said that thoughts could be like waves passing through the medium of your brain, which has been refined to "random chemicals floating around in your head" thanks to some new science.

Nihilism: Now you can doubt everything!

[Felblood]

Now imagine us, as a group of dwaves

--sitting in the fortress arguing about this stuff for years on end, while the other dwarves try to figure out whether we're brilliant, crazy, or just trying to get out of doing any physical work.

[Granite26]

whether we're brilliant, crazy, or just trying to get out of doing any physical work.

The latter.... YAY Programming Job!!!

[Felblood]

Yeah....

I think we've demonstrated that philosophy and philosophers are far more likely to drive your dwarves to suicide or murder, than to pull them back from the brink.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Now imagine us, as a group of dwaves

--sitting in the fortress arguing about this stuff for years on end, while the other dwarves try to figure out whether we're brilliant, crazy, or just trying to get out of doing any physical work.

woot

I think I have decided to prove wether or not Urist McTouchypants (you know, the guy who keeps wanting us to go DO something, who keeps muttering about idle dwarves) is real buy strapping him to ye old ballista and pulling the lever.

"no, no, STOP, you gone crazy!"
*click*
(simulate bad TV sound of falling object)
*Kersplat!*

HA!  I think I just proved the existence of other life!  But lets double check to make sure.  Anyone here doubt the existence of the Hammerer?

GMcG

PS:  Fellblood, I have no idea where that wild hair I got up my butt earlier came from, but no biggie, cuz tomorrow it wont exist   Sorry for the (very minor) flame.

[Felblood]

No, problem.

Philosphy does that to people.