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[Granite26]

Something akin to CS Lewis' scifi trilogy? (which always felt to me to be more fantasy than scifi)

Yeah or something less Sci-Fi (so people won't shoot it down so fast) Spherical lands could be linked to particular planets and grow in power, size, or population during certain time periods.

So when lets say Mars the planet of Fire is at its Zeneth the Hills of Fire grows in such power that beings made of living flame spawn forth and plague surrounding lands!

Or cooler, creatures from Mars with the ability to traverse the distance appear in the world! (Though this could wait until the Planes v2 arc... each planet could be a different world)

[Granite26]

What I'm seeing here is sphere based astrology, where celestial bodies are tied to spheres and given cycles.

Current cycles are based around orbits.  Either the object is orbiting you, you are orbiting it, it is orbiting the same thing as you, or it is part of the celestial background.

That covers stellar, solar, lunar, and planetary bodies.  You'd still need something to cover comets, I guess.  Anyway, you'd have once a year things, once a month things, and once a cycle based on two rotating bodies (will derive math later)

If you align each body with (a) sphere(s), You could have extremely complicated astrological charges mapping the ascendancy of each sphere.  With enough bodies, you could track 'alignments', or periods where three or more celestial bodies boosting the same sphere are all ascendant, creating a serious power boost.  (Say you multiply the effects of spheres rather than adding).  It's possible that only a few planetary alignments that happen relatively often (once every 5 years, 7 years and 11 years)  could combine into a rare mega-event (once every 385 years).

*This does not*
Presuppose any sort of orbital mechanics:  It's simple astrological cycles
Presuppose astrological houses:  When Mars is in Virgo isn't tracked so much as 'Every 5 years Mars is aligned/ascendant'
Define what a sphere ascendant means:  That's a separate discussion.

*Usage*
Randomly or Raw-wise, define a group of suns, moons, constellations, and planets.  Each definition contains a cycle type, cycle period, and sphere alignment(s)  The system will track periods of alignment based on the period and cycle type.  Enough variation and 2-3 alignments necessary for a real change in power should make this practically random, and yet predictable

[Flaede]

you could, instead of forcing a certain (likely large) number of celestial bodies, allow "celestial bodies" randomly generated to choose alignments and crud the way gods currently do. heck, they could even choose GODS the way gods currently do. (different gods to different civs, that is)... this uses a preexisting system (Sort of) and makes less become forced on the worldgen from the raws... thus allowing worlds with the same seed to be more alike, which i will always argue strongly for (since I use a custom mod thingy for my own amusement, but like some of the seeds folks post up)

[Hectonkhyres]

Hm. It makes me wonder about how these different powers should interact with each other. Would the celestial bodies of fire and ice cancel each other out if they were to come into ascendancy together or would they have some sort of hybrid effect such as affecting the element of water... perhaps causing bodies of water to flood their banks and generally increase global precipitation or something to that effect.  Or would each just effect the climatological extremes, cranking up the thermostat in near the equator while cranking it way down at the poles.

But I suppose this is the same sort of thing we will be worrying about with lesser powers just expanded somewhat.

[Granite26]

Hm. It makes me wonder about how these different powers should interact with each other. Would the celestial bodies of fire and ice cancel each other out if they were to come into ascendancy together or would they have some sort of hybrid effect such as affecting the element of water... perhaps causing bodies of water to flood their banks and generally increase global precipitation or something to that effect.  Or would each just effect the climatological extremes, cranking up the thermostat in near the equator while cranking it way down at the poles.

But I suppose this is the same sort of thing we will be worrying about with lesser powers just expanded somewhat.

Yeah, sphere powers interacting is huge wierd, even if it's just Helios or Boreas duking it out in your fort

[Flaede]

if I recall, there's a mod out there that makes EVERY CREATURE a potential Power... this would likely crash worldgen if they all had to be given a star to be wished on.

[Felblood]

You'd want to take a given number of astral bodies, and then auction them off to whatever powers you have.

Use whatever code generates megabeasts, and modify it to create planets and moons. Then auction those items off to spheres, or gods, or crops, or whatever you like.

You could also auction off each month of the year. Your moonphase will probably come up around once a month, so if we pass out months stacked bonuses shouldn't be totally world ending. However if you have a planet, a month and a moon phase for the same god or sphere, and they all come up at once, people are going to expect some fireworks, at least in areas that are already dominated by that entity.

Spheres or gods that dominate a planet should get more points to buy with. Astrological events that actually impact gameplay are more likely, but there's still room for plenty of random, interesting stuff.

With spheres, a very Sphere X dominant world, would have more numerous or more powerful Sphere X signs in it's sky. Say, water buys the full moon and Felsite, and has enough points left over to buy a small, infreaquent star. The other spheres are still going to be able to buy months or phases, of their own, with only the really weak one having to make do with only a star.

Gods are trickier. Since it's hard to determine how powerful or influential a given god will be, you might have to give out set points to all of them. Each god get's 2000 points and each megabeast gets 500. If an astrologically significant beast dies, his property could go up for auction, or he could just retain those signs, but no longer to any real effect.

Maybe suns too, but having more than one of those would have to have a lot of other ramifications, to be believable. Yes, it's possible for a planet in a binary system to have fairly normal seasons, but it feels weird to me. --considerably more so than having the powers of the gods wax and wane, with the movements of the celestial bodies. I don't know why; it just does.

Maybe it's because the planet in question is flat (or at least has edges) and has dragons on it. People just accept certain things from a flat planet with dragons on it.

[Warlord255]

I'm going to be a bit of a bastard here;

Is there a function to having stars in a top-down game? I see very little, other than SPAAAACE INVADERS or comets which could easily be fudged events.

[Mel_Vixen]

Astrologie and Astronomy are very interresting cause they can have nonmagical effects on the world too.

Moons have effects on wildlife, the tides, Wer-animals etc.

Also fortunetelling with the stars is something can have big effects. For example it could be more likely that Elves atack, theyr dwarven neighbors, if the Star of war crosses the Picture "sword", the white moon is dark and the Bloodmoon full.

Superstitions bound with the stars could affekt local Populations. The star of the stranger near the star of the Dragon? Get your ass out of our Town "Messenger of  Misfortune".

Healing Plants and herbs could be more potent on Fullmoons (which they are normly by the way).

Also Supernovae while only happening in once can be pretty interresting cause they look for the unknowing like an very bright new star. If they happen near enought they can even be brighter then the moon. Meteors and shooting stars are two in the once in a while category which can have some interresting effects on the world.

[Felblood]

You don't have to see the stars for them to have an impact.

Looking at the stars is an astrologer's job, and he can do that for you.

All you need to know is that the planet of water is going to reach dominance during the moth of water this spring, and you can expect a worse flood than usual.

[Granite26]

Blatantly, the point of astrology in a top-down game is to have arythmic cycles of sphere power.  Cycles of the moon have long been used in RPGs, but they are... too regular and too often.

The Solar and Lunar cycles (month is a complete cycle) shouldn't have major sphere alignments because they happen every year.  Approximately once per month, there's a lunar eclipse of some kind.

Basically, the power level of anything should be based on it's rarity, so fast moving cycles (like lunar) should have low values.  They'd still spike values though.  (Mars and Venus are aligned for Fire 10 * Fire 10.  When the moon hits, it's an extra fire *2.)

Remember that - in this case really equates to 1/x...  (Reduces the value)

Intelligence should be used to keep cycles from synching perfectly within each other for 2 cycles that share a sphere.  I.E. the 360 day year should not share any spheres with the 30 day lunar cycle.

Math Post:
*Warning, Boring Math stuff*

Planets
I'm assuming truly circular orbits, I didn't feel like doing ellipses

First, Kepler's Third Law:  Pe^2 / Re^3 = Px^2/Rx^3
What it means for us:  The period is expressable in terms of the radius and vice versa.  For a physically constant universe, all that is necessary is the period (how long a year is) and the radius will work itself out.  If we call the radius of the dwarfplanet to the sun '1AU', everything else falls out. (and who really cares what 1au is?)

ThX = 360 * (Time%Px) / Px + Thx1)
This is the rotation of the planet.  ThX is the rotation, Time%Px is Time elapsed in the cycle, and Px is the cycle period.  Thx1 is the starting offset (Useful to keep everything from being aligned at year 0 and destroying the world)

ThEX = tan-1((sin(ThE)Re - sin(ThX)Rx)/(cos(ThE)Re - cos(ThX)Rx)
This is the badboy.  It will tell you the angle to a given planet(X) from the dwarf planet.  If you assume Re = 1AU, Pe = 360 days, and Px is known, you have enough to solve this.  Two planets are aligned if they have the same ThEX (or close enough).

Stars
Stars (and constelations) are (effectively) infinitely distant points.  Thus, their ThEX is constant.

Moons and the Sun
The sun is easy.  For a 360 day year, ThEX is the day of the year.  Moons are just as easy.  ThEX = 360 * (Time%Px) / Px + Thx1), as stated earlier.  (this works for the sun, too, if you assume Thx1 = 0 and Px = 360...)

Any complete system should include elliptical orbits and hyperbolic orbits (hyperbolic = comets that appear randomly and then go forever)

[Felblood]

Don't assume we need astronomy (at least as we know it) to give astrology to a flat planet.

There is no reason that astronomical motion has to resemble a circle in any way.

Cyclical functions are much easier to work with (don't start with anything too alien), but they aren't strictly necessary or even particularly important.

You can just say that the star of Armok is aligned every 1000 days.

Individually, no astral event should be world ending. The combination of two effects should be fairly noteworthy. Three events with similar effects, occurring at once should be cause for concern, particularly if your astrologer failed to predict it, and you don't know where all these wild elementals came from, or what they want. All the stars must be right before C'thul'hu awakens in Ry'leh.

This makes even a weak, infrequent influence important, since it can join up with other effects for more potency.

I propose that astrology use and additive percentage system. Using my old example, water buys the full moon, the month of Felsite and some infrequent, but fairly potent planet. Say these have values of +6%, +9% and +7%, respectively:

All of Felsite is 109% as watery as normal. Expect spring flooding to be worse than normal on this planet.

Every month, including Felsite, there's a full moon. The two effects combine for 115% water. Presto, astrology can predict what day the annual frogman invasion will arrive (since the nasties presumably know when they'll have the advantage and strike then).

If, one year, the planet becomes dominant in Felsite (116%), the Frogmen invade twice, in the same month. A little extra surprise to keep you on your toes.

One year, water's planet becomes aligned with your world on the day of the frogman invasion. At 122% water, you can expect a lot more frogs than you planned on. On the bright side, a lot of masterwork booze get's made.

For events that can only happen during astrological events involving multiple bodies, simply don't add 100%. There's a 22% chance of water men coming out of the wells, or whatever, at the same time you're trying to fend off this other ambush.

If astrological bodies with similar spheres are common (I'm assuming that a planet/moon phase/month combo, will be pretty rare), you'd want to have a minimum threshold of aligned bodies for certain distinctly astrological events.

You wouldn't want the system to be particularly potent, you'd just want it to be pervasive. My examples don't really reflect that, but activities from boosted spheres should get a small lift from the stars.

Creating an underlying system that effects all the random stuff in random ways would be great, since it actually makes the game feel less random.

Did that large group of trolls spawn because I was unlucky, or would a better astrologer have been able to help me prepare for it?

No longer do we curse the malevolent RNG, but instead we curse the fickle stars of dwarven fate.

More skilled astrologers should be able to recognize coming alignments sooner, or even predict how the world will react to them.

[Granite26]

The nice thing about modeling astonomy is that it gives us a nice arythmic cycle.  The problem with saying something is aligned every X days is that it's a rythmic cycle.  Rythmic cycles are very hard to make work because alignments will always be the LCD of the two numbers.  Sure, the Star of Armok is aligned every 1000 days.  If the Star of Urist is aligned every 1100 days, then every 11000 days (without fail) they will align with each other.  Also, if you offset startdates of cycles (30 day month cycle starts on a tuesday), you run the risk of things NEVER aligning.

Your percentage system is simply additive.  Your description of the escalating events is not.  Multiplying them together would be a better reference for players, don't you think?  (Not that the events would change, just the way they corresponded to numbers).  I agree with the feel though.  1 thing is barely noticable, 2 is a statistical anomoly, and 3 is batshit crazy.

A few more expansions:

Any complete system should include elliptical orbits and hyperbolic orbits (hyperbolic = comets that appear randomly and then go away forever).  You could also do supernovas (a star that creates a severe alignment point at a set point in the sky for a set period of time.)  Comets and supernovas are good things to do in response to real world events.  A comet signifies the birth of a new dwarf king (prince, really).  Effect?  He gets bonuses based on where the comet is AND there is a new item in the sky affecting the cosmology.  The comet's path is set to fizzle (go out of range) at the average lifespan of a dwarf.

obviously, Astrology should never be exposed to the player in this(highly numeric) form.  I would think that there would be various means of exposure, often based on astrology.  The simplest is to go to an astrologer and get a reading.  That should tell you what is in effect right now.  A more powerful Astrologer could tell the future, predicting when peaks of various spheres will occur in the near future.  Right now, the forge sphere is at rising (+10 pts) but on the 26th of Granite, it will reach an epic peak (+50 pts)

Finally:  Rising Alignments
Rising :  Given that the step size will likely be 1 day, planets will almost never be in perfect alignment.  One way to create a real system where alignments last appropriate periods and phase in and out correctly is to use vectors.  Basically, the closer they got, the closer to max value you'd get.  (I'm still working on a good formula for this, but ideally it'd start at 0 for a min difference and ramp up geometrically to A*B at perfect alignment. Maybe (degDIF+1)root(A*B) so that 1 degree difference would be the square root and  0 would be full)  Powers could be balance by making weaker effects have wider ranges of alignment (Constellations vs Stars here)

One final note:  If done right, this could handle the weather, as well.  Apply various modifiers to the constellations(for the sake of argument, I'll have 12 spread out evenly) that combine with the sun.  Draco, the constellation of July (it would be aligned with the sun for the entire month) would have the Weather Sphere at 10, whereas the constellation corresponding to December might have a 2.  When Mars is aligned (Weather 1.5), you know you're in for an epic hot summer, and every 100 years or so, Jupiter also gets into the mix (Weather 1.3) and you've got a plant killing drought that your astrologer can warn you of.

[Neonivek]

I guess I could add stages and mechanics of a few celestial bodies. They should function in similar way as gods do so we can have Suns of Darkness or death.

Please don't take everything I say as a take it all or leave it... You are allowed to pick out what you like.

Suns: Suns have consistant power over a planet
-Phases: Day and Night
-Time Period: Usually day or night

Moons: Moons for all intents and purposes are planets you revolve around or a planet that revolves around you. They are a consistant power. They are strongest at night no matter what powers it holds.
-Phases: Lunar Eclypse, Solar Eclypse, No moon, Crecent Bright, Crecent Dark, Half Bright, Half Dark, and Full Moon
-Special: Moons because they are so close are capable of splitting up spheres among their phases. They either have 1, 2, 4, or 8 sets of spheres.
-Lunar Eclypse: During this event the moon's power cannot reach the world and the moon reaches unprecidented Zeneth
-Solar Eclypse: During this event the Sun's power cannot reach the world and the world realises
--On Eclypse: These are capable of interupting
-1-set: a Moon with only one set choses either no moon or full moon as its zeneth. It either has little power during a no moon or becomes a reverse Zeneth and weakens said sphere.

Stars: These refer to single stars or constelations. They are weaker and when out of view no longer hold any power.
-Phases: Present, Zeneth, Gone, Nova
-Present: The Star sheds some power during a month or three of the year
-Zeneth: A period of a day to a month. Birth-stars
-Gone: a star when non-present
-Nova: A Star shines bright, it only happens once to a star ever.
-Special: Stars can be ever present such as North stars. They also, rarely, form or disapear.

Comets: Short lived astrological event that could take months to thousands of years to occur again. This list could refer to asteroids, meteors, or comets. They can represent groups of them as well.
-Phases: Present, Zeneth, Falling, and gone
-Present: Some comets have present and some do not. This lasts a week at most and is rather weak.
-Zeneth: when the comit is in view, this lasts a day
-Falling: A Comet falls to the earth as its High-Zeneth. It never recovers
-Gone: when the comit is out of view
-Special: Comets are not guarenteed and are capable of becoming shooting stars, appearing only once, and unlike other celestial objects they are capable of being created and destroyed consistantly.

Planets: Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, Saturn, Venus, Uranus, Neptune, Pluto
-Phases: Present, Zeneth, Gone

Mechanic: Zeneth
-Zeneth refers windows in which celestial bodies are at their peak. Some celestial bodies provide a high-Zeneth which is a rare event in which its powers are intensified.

Allignment:
-The Game should invent "allignment" events in which celestial bodies will move into eachother's area intensifying their effects.

Conjunction:
-A weaker version of allignment, when several celestial bodies are within the same general area of the sky.

Guiding Body:
-People can be associated with celestial bodies during their Zeneths. These Guiding bodies hold the most power.
--Lands can also be associated with a said Celestial Body even outside of spheres.

Power over the world:
-In essence I think Astrology should, outside of grand celestial events, pose little effect on mundane creatures. When it comes to Powers, Megabeasts, Magic, Artifacts, Gods, Non-mundane Creatures, and Spherical Lands however it should have a lot more pull. A Allignment of two death Planets under the constilation of rebirth could be enough to allow a demon to revive himself. A Land of Darkness could become a death sentence for anyone foolish enough to traverse it during a full moon.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I'd like to request 13 moons in the DF sky, each of which could then function as a "plane" to explore via portal, when we get portals to other planes in the game.

I think it'd be more interesting, instead of having D&D style "planes" of elements, etc., have otherworldly "planes" actually be objects (moons) in the sky that can be seen at night.

Astrology in DF could then be a bit simplified, since it would deal with just the relation of the various moons to the main DF planet, which would help make it easier for everyone to understand how it was working.