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Author Topic: Prison  (Read 3926 times)

Yanlin

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Re: Prison
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2009, 02:57:54 pm »

Dwarf fortress is turn based. Each turn just passes automatically.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Prison
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2009, 03:40:44 pm »

On a programming level, you could actually say the same for pretty much any commercial real-time game on the market. The difference is just that DF slows down if you lag the computer, while most games work to keep up by passing multiple turns quickly without rendering if you lag the computer.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Prison
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2009, 04:21:26 pm »

On a programming level, you could actually say the same for pretty much any commercial real-time game on the market. The difference is just that DF slows down if you lag the computer, while most games work to keep up by passing multiple turns quickly without rendering if you lag the computer.

Correct. I even consider DoW to be turn-based, what with the lag and the dullness of AI I have to deal with.
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Yanlin

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Re: Prison
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2009, 08:01:38 am »

On a programming level, you could actually say the same for pretty much any commercial real-time game on the market. The difference is just that DF slows down if you lag the computer, while most games work to keep up by passing multiple turns quickly without rendering if you lag the computer.

Incorrect. DF doesn't render in real time. Every frame is a turn. You can modify it so it only renders a frame every X turns.

However, real time games just keep rendering at a set pace (Or a changeable pace.) with maybe the option of pausing. You cannot actually play it turn by turn.

In DF, when you pause, you can press the . (dot) button to pass one turn. There you go. Turn based gameplay. :D
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Prison
« Reply #19 on: February 26, 2009, 09:10:35 am »

When you say "incorrect" to my statement that commercial real-time games could also be called turn-based with automatically passing turns, that leads me to conclude that either 1) you missed that I'm talking on a programming level, not a gameplay level, or 2) you don't understand how real-time games really work under the hood, and thus think DF's turn-based roots make it different from other real-time games.

Well, I spent a couple years of college majoring in how to program real-time games, so here comes the wall of text. ;)

When you perceive a game to be running "in real time", that's because the game turns pass so fast that they blur together into one smooth movement. It's not actually real time, it just looks that way. 30 turns or frames per second is plenty to get this effect. By default, Dwarf Fortress runs at 100 turns (frames) per second, but the units move on a grid, so there's no way it's going to feel smooth. Of course, the mechanics of how real-time gaming works is the same at one turn per second as at one hundred -- the difference is that if you actually notice the divisions between turns, you'll realize very quickly it's turn-based, while if the turns pass fast enough, you'll think it's fancy real-time gaming.

Ideally the game usually tries to run one frame ever 1/60 or 1/30 of a second, as that usually keeps things synchronized with the monitor refresh rate, but it doesn't always work out that way. If you have a ship flying around on a 2D plane, the ship's speed is rated not in distance over time, but distance per frame. Each frame, everything moves its movement speed, guys shoot at each other, AI thinks for awhile, whatever happens in the game happens. At the end of the frame, if there's enough time left, it renders the state of the game at the end of that frame. If there isn't enough time left, it simply doesn't render that frame, since rendering is very slow and tends to lag the computer even more, and the game wants to maintain the illusion of everything happening "in real time", which will become a problem if the logic framerate changes. This is why when a commercial game lags, the game itself (usually) appears to keep moving at a constant rate, even though your FPS drops.

What DF does differently from the usual commercial model during Dwarf Mode is very little:

1) DF decouples the render framerate from the logic framerate, allowing you to set separate targets for each. This was the solution to the "rendering too much aggrivates lag" problem, and operates in place of the variable FPS for rendering and constant FPS for game logic that commercial games generally aim for.

2) DF exposes more of the turn-based underpinnings to the player. It pauses regularly, has an alternate game mode that's entirely turn-based, and yes, adds the ability to advance individual frames in a turn-based style, as you said. From a gameplay perspective, that's a huge difference, but from a programming perspective, it's insignificant. It would be very easy to add this to other games, but in most games it's not useful. There's no point in advancing only one frame in Command and Conquer or Counter-Strike, for example. But again, because they are turn-based on a low level, it would be very easy to expose this functionality to the player if that was the programmer's intent.

To the programmer, Dwarf Fortress in Dwarf Mode is every bit as much a real-time game as anything else out there. You're just likely to perceive it differently as a player because DF embraces its turn-based roots, moves its units around on a grid, and lags much more, while other games go out of their way to trick you into thinking the game is just constantly running and everything is smoothly gliding from place to place in a very natural and consistent manner. In reality, on a programming level, even real-time games are still turn-based, just like Dwarf Fortress. You just don't have to know that to play them.
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Dakk

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Re: Prison
« Reply #20 on: February 26, 2009, 10:28:41 pm »

I want prison rape implemented.
Now.
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E. Albright

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Re: Prison
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2009, 10:36:34 pm »

If you feel so strongly about it, implement it yourself.

Though honestly, I can't imagine any motive for wanting it so emphatically beyond zomg prisonrape lawlz!!1!eleven!!!1!

And given that lovely (presumptive) motivation, I personally don't see any good reason to want to have it added.
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mainiac

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Re: Prison
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2009, 10:42:04 pm »

Orson Scott Card taught me that if a straight person is raped by a gay, they become gay.  I want prison rape as another way to turn conservatives liberal.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

E. Albright

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Re: Prison
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2009, 11:01:31 pm »

Well, if we're having Scifi authors weigh in on this, I must in good faith point out that Anne McCaffrey concurs with OSC, though she cites the forcible use of a tent peg as being most sure in this regard.  :-\
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mainiac

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Re: Prison
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2009, 11:59:29 pm »

Excellent, I'll remember this next time I am volunteering for a campaign.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
--------------
[CAN_INTERNET]
[PREFSTRING:google]
"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

beorn080

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Re: Prison
« Reply #25 on: February 27, 2009, 12:18:08 am »

I must have missed the book where OSC mentioned that factoid.
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mainiac

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Re: Prison
« Reply #26 on: February 27, 2009, 01:00:36 am »

I must have missed the book where OSC mentioned that factoid.

Not just a book.  He preached his message straight to the people!
http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2004-02-15-1.html

Remember, kids.  He has stated quite clearly that he's not a homophobe.
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Ancient Babylonian god of RAEG
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"Don't tell me what you value. Show me your budget and I will tell you what you value"
« Last Edit: February 10, 1988, 03:27:23 pm by UR MOM »
mainiac is always a little sarcastic, at least.

Yanlin

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Re: Prison
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2009, 05:03:24 am »

When you say "incorrect" to my statement that commercial real-time games could also be called turn-based with automatically passing turns, that leads me to conclude that either 1) you missed that I'm talking on a programming level, not a gameplay level, or 2) you don't understand how real-time games really work under the hood, and thus think DF's turn-based roots make it different from other real-time games.

Well, I spent a couple years of college majoring in how to program real-time games, so here comes the wall of text. ;)

When you perceive a game to be running "in real time", that's because the game turns pass so fast that they blur together into one smooth movement. It's not actually real time, it just looks that way. 30 turns or frames per second is plenty to get this effect. By default, Dwarf Fortress runs at 100 turns (frames) per second, but the units move on a grid, so there's no way it's going to feel smooth. Of course, the mechanics of how real-time gaming works is the same at one turn per second as at one hundred -- the difference is that if you actually notice the divisions between turns, you'll realize very quickly it's turn-based, while if the turns pass fast enough, you'll think it's fancy real-time gaming.

Ideally the game usually tries to run one frame ever 1/60 or 1/30 of a second, as that usually keeps things synchronized with the monitor refresh rate, but it doesn't always work out that way. If you have a ship flying around on a 2D plane, the ship's speed is rated not in distance over time, but distance per frame. Each frame, everything moves its movement speed, guys shoot at each other, AI thinks for awhile, whatever happens in the game happens. At the end of the frame, if there's enough time left, it renders the state of the game at the end of that frame. If there isn't enough time left, it simply doesn't render that frame, since rendering is very slow and tends to lag the computer even more, and the game wants to maintain the illusion of everything happening "in real time", which will become a problem if the logic framerate changes. This is why when a commercial game lags, the game itself (usually) appears to keep moving at a constant rate, even though your FPS drops.

What DF does differently from the usual commercial model during Dwarf Mode is very little:

1) DF decouples the render framerate from the logic framerate, allowing you to set separate targets for each. This was the solution to the "rendering too much aggrivates lag" problem, and operates in place of the variable FPS for rendering and constant FPS for game logic that commercial games generally aim for.

2) DF exposes more of the turn-based underpinnings to the player. It pauses regularly, has an alternate game mode that's entirely turn-based, and yes, adds the ability to advance individual frames in a turn-based style, as you said. From a gameplay perspective, that's a huge difference, but from a programming perspective, it's insignificant. It would be very easy to add this to other games, but in most games it's not useful. There's no point in advancing only one frame in Command and Conquer or Counter-Strike, for example. But again, because they are turn-based on a low level, it would be very easy to expose this functionality to the player if that was the programmer's intent.

To the programmer, Dwarf Fortress in Dwarf Mode is every bit as much a real-time game as anything else out there. You're just likely to perceive it differently as a player because DF embraces its turn-based roots, moves its units around on a grid, and lags much more, while other games go out of their way to trick you into thinking the game is just constantly running and everything is smoothly gliding from place to place in a very natural and consistent manner. In reality, on a programming level, even real-time games are still turn-based, just like Dwarf Fortress. You just don't have to know that to play them.

Sorry. Programming level. Right.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Prison
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2009, 05:30:15 am »

Sorry if that was a little too wall of text-ish. ;)

---
Re: Prison Rape

I personally don't plan to implement prison rape or any other type of rape in LCS. I saw George Carlin's "Rape can be funny" skit, but I didn't laugh. Maybe I've just known one or two too many people who were sexually mistreated or otherwise traumatized to see past the serious side of it. And that's the problem with trying to joke about rape, or treat the subject lightly; anyone who has been sufficiently exposed to it is likely to be offended, even if it's funny to others. So while I can recognize to a certain extent the hypocrisy one might claim in trying to keep rape out of a game like LCS, I have no plans to enable it for any purpose.

Grand Theft Auto is similar; you can pick up prostitutes then kill them afterwards, drive drunk, and burn police officers alive with a flamethrower, but strike your girlfriend on a date even accidentally, even just a single time, and the game will instantly end your date and give zero reward for the action, not even appropriate dialogue, just a text message stating that the date is over because you hit her. It's not funny, it's not fun, and you can tell the developers made a point to have it not be funny or fun. Even in a game about being a maniacal criminal, they draw the line at violence in personal and sexual relationships.
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Rezan

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Re: Prison
« Reply #29 on: February 27, 2009, 09:12:11 am »

Actually Carlin didn't find rape to be funny. He found jokes about rape to be funny when phrased properly. I personally see no way to implement rape in the prison and not violate Carlin's Law of Rape Jokes. It has no real comedic value, it would serve no purpose.
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