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Author Topic: Suggestions Forum Organization  (Read 258243 times)

Gazz

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #60 on: February 21, 2010, 08:18:34 am »

My suggestion: a mix of some of these concepts.

Rule set:
  • Use this forum instead of a Wiki.

  • Every thread is required to have a tag leading the subject, such as:
    DAMAGE: Piercing vs blunt vs slashing
    or DAMAGE: Falling into water / magma

  • All allowed tags are listed in a sticky. New tags can be proposed in the sticky.
    Adding proposed tags to the allowed list would be all the absolutely required moderator action.

    Everyone inventing their own tags as they go is silly because it defeats the purpose of a successful search for specific items.

  • The forum description (both on the main listing and in the forum) encourages "discussion" instead of merely contributing ideas. That always gets out of hand.
    See "Stay on topic".

  • Searching for existing threads on the same subject is mandatory.

  • Thread necromancy is mandatory if a previous thread covers the same subject or a "sufficiently close" variation.
    (some margin for error there but this is designed as useful, not perfect)

    Items applying to "old versions" is a concern but if people stick to concepts and ideas, these stay valid throughout all versions of DF. Even if suggestions have already been partially implemented, there will always be parts that can be reused later.

    Discussions about features of the current/upcoming/whatever version... should stick to the discussion forums.

  • One idea / concept / suggestion per thread.
    While it's commendable that people have often tried to summarize whole pages of  ideas, multi-topic posts are pretty useless to a developer looking for something specific.
    (It's unlikely that Toady will run out of optional wishlist items anytime soon.)

    And there wont be a MULTI: tag because it defeats the whole purpose of finding specific items. =)

    That also means: No thread drift. No chatter.
    There is no harm in discussing an idea in a chatter forum and then posting the summary here.

    Instead of lumping loosely related ideas into one thread it can be helpul to merely include a link to the thread containing the "related issue".

  • Stay on topic.
    This should be implied by the previous post but it's a very very difficult concept for many.
    Here you can see trolls derailing a thread with off-topic posts while not even trying to enhance or improve upon the proposed feature.
    Unproductive.

  • Sometimes, items will invariably touch several other items, such as weapon damage being related to materials.
    Pick tag that applies closest.
    If not possible, propose new tag and post your idea when it's been approved.
    If it can't wait a day or two, it probably was some embarrassingly harebrained scheme anyway.

    With the tags a limited quantity and with a descriptive subject, the thread can still be found since Toady isn't stupid, either.

  • You have a good idea? Be clear and concise in the explanation. Think it through.
    That the player can understand a new feature is fine but how would the AI understand and cope with it? How does it affect the rest of the game?
    A lot of my own ideas looked good on paper until I put them in context and started considering the aftereffects.

  • The locals 'round here don't seem to be an unreasonable bunch and can certainly see the value of some organisation so the system would most likely work without having an iron fisted moderator to enforce these rules.

    Still, it should be made very clear that failure to comply with such simple rules will get the thread deleted without any warning or notice.
    Now, whether this is actually enforced or not is probably irrelevant. Noone likes the idea of their valuable contribution being deleted just because they were too lazy to look up a proper tag. =)

Now I know that I'm sounding like some forum nazi but if your suggestions are worth being read, they should also be structured so that they can be found when needed.
Otherwise - why would you go to the trouble of posting them?

The list above is too long for "simple rules" but that's because of the reasoning and explanation. Just the rules would be very slim.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2010, 02:44:37 pm by Gazz »
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #61 on: February 21, 2010, 07:24:28 pm »

Some good ideas here.

Frankly, I don't enjoy the idea of having to follow some kind of mandatory "tag glossary", but on the other hand, it might possibly make the Search function useful (it's currently crap).

Just having a stickied list of topics that have threads associated with them already-and links to those threads-might do as well as tags, however.

I have no idea what you mean about using this forum instead of a wiki? Giving the Forum stronger ties to the Wiki might not be a bad idea, however. The problem being that the DF Wiki is an independent project from Bay12.

Having posts deleted is probably not going to happen. It hasn't happened in all the years this Forum has been around, that I've ever noticed, and certainly if ToadyOne went to the trouble of deleting something, it wasn't just because it wasn't clearly labeled, or anything like that. As an empty threat, I suppose it might have some use as a deterrant for casual posters.

Everyone suggests searching be mandatory. Let me restate that the Search function is currently crap. Maybe not entirely useless (and some people insist it's the best thing since sliced bread), but difficult to use compared to many, many other search engines, imprecise, and inaccurate when it does work. Partly because of the nature of the Forum in it's current state, which the current Search engine can't cope with. So make it mandatory, but I doubt that will fix a lot of problems.

This being the Internet, there will always be thread drift. There have been some efforts towards real thread Naziism, to prevent that, but they always seem to become more disruptive and ugly and extremist than the "drift" itself.

For that matter, "discussion" is a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the social nature of the Forum not only helps generate contributions (I know I'd rather give money to my friends' projects, than to a faceless corporation), it also helps maintain that "reasonability" that we apparently have here, since on some level everybody knows everybody a little bit.

The one idea per thread is a really good idea. Mandatory spellcheck would also be nice. I don't know why thread necromancy is even still an issue? Topicality doesn't really seem to be too much of a big deal, unless you're talking specifically about version history.
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Gazz

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #62 on: February 22, 2010, 06:39:59 am »

Frankly, I don't enjoy the idea of having to follow some kind of mandatory "tag glossary", but on the other hand, it might possibly make the Search function useful
I'm not overly keen on using someone else's filing system, either, but this way it would be Toady's call, which tags are significant and which aren't.
Something that looks like a unique topic to us might (codeside) be a trivial sideshow or conglomerate of other features that doesn't... fit.
And the whole point of the forum is to serve the master - not me and not you.. =)


The system I proposed would require little to no moderation. Probably none at all once a sufficient number of tags exist.
That's basically the key point. Doability.
Improved (not perfect) structure and searchability at a very low cost.

Yes, a Wiki can be more powerful/structured but potentially grows in all kinds of directions and some of that growth can turn out cancerous, overlapping multiple pages or otherwise mudding up the searchability.
It's also a lot more volatile because everyone can delete/replace content they personally disagree with.
Besides, a Wiki is far less simple to operate than forum posts. I've heard some good ideas from creative people who were practically tech-illiterate. Building any artificial elitist barriers doesn't serve the purpose.



Quote
Everyone suggests searching be mandatory. Let me restate that the Search function is currently crap.
...
So make it mandatory, but I doubt that will fix a lot of problems.
I don't expect it to work perfectly all of a sudden.
I don't even expect such a rule being observed all the time.
It's just another wording for: "For the love of god at least try to search for an existing thread!"

It just works better when barked in a stern command voice. =P
Realistically, any rule that cannot be inforced is pointless... and there is no way to check if someone did search or not.
Still... having such a rule will do some good - if only for the psychological effect.


Quote
Just having a stickied list of topics that have threads associated with them already-and links to those threads-might do as well as tags, however.
That requires moderator action (a precious commodity round here =) for every single thread, cataloging and adding them to the sticky thread.


Quote
For that matter, "discussion" is a good thing. I'm pretty certain that the social nature of the Forum not only helps generate contributions (I know I'd rather give money to my friends' projects, than to a faceless corporation), it also helps maintain that "reasonability" that we apparently have here, since on some level everybody knows everybody a little bit.
In any "normal" forum I'd totally agree but a suggestion forum should be more curt and to the point.
Nothing wrong with adding to an existing idea but I doubt that a 20 page thread is all ideas.
Friendliness is fine and dandy but having to sift through 19 pages of discussion or chatter is wasting the man's time.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #63 on: March 05, 2010, 03:53:02 pm »

The modding board seems to be split between questions about modding, and mod-projects, themselves.
This would seem to be one of the better ideas.

Another thought would be splitting off graphic sets, but that might be too much.
I ha'e a better thought. Instead of splitting modding into modding/modquestions, subforum DF Modding with three:
  • Graphics/Tilesets
  • Actual Game Mods (title WIP, I'm sure better could be made)
  • Utilities and Visualisers (could gi'e each their own subforum, alternately)
and, separately but recommendedly, sticky a questions thread in Game Mods and Graphics each.
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praguepride

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #64 on: March 09, 2010, 10:22:49 am »

In a lot of beta forums they usually split it up into several broad categories, as CK suggested.

The ones that I recall from STO were:

Graphics & UI
Missions
Powers
Combat
General Gameplay

Powers = Skills & Stats
Missions = Jobs & Professions

and you've got a good split. It doesn't have to be strict, but mods can move threads if they feel it's necessary. The point is that a suggestion about adding double-bladed swords doesn't need to be in the same forum as one proposing that there be hidden magma deposits.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #65 on: March 10, 2010, 01:19:41 pm »

In a lot of beta forums they usually split it up into several broad categories, as CK suggested.

The ones that I recall from STO were:

Graphics & UI
Missions
Powers
Combat
General Gameplay

Powers = Skills & Stats
Missions = Jobs & Professions

and you've got a good split. It doesn't have to be strict, but mods can move threads
Do mind I was talking about the modding forum, not suggestions.

Also, nicely, people can move their own threads in these forums!
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praguepride

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #66 on: March 11, 2010, 03:59:34 pm »

And I was referring to the suggestions forum. Your point?

edit: one thing I'm going to try and do is relate new threads to items in the dev log. So if I want to discuss an item, it would have that name right in the text. Considering that most people don't write out PowergoalXX in the threads, that should make searching easier

IF it's a style that catches on...
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2010, 12:05:35 am »

Gazz: If I can understand and edit wikis, than surely the only technical elitist barriers will be between the (more or less) higher primates, and the rest of the animal kingdom. Dolphins, crows, and octopi may involve and sort themselves as they find motivation... 

Also, "serving the master" does mean fostering contributions, which is another function this Forum serves. In some fashion, the Forum goes perhaps as far as DF possibly can, towards pleasing everyone, all of the time.




Do mind I was talking about the modding forum, not suggestions.


I believe this was simply for the point of clarification.
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CobaltKobold

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #68 on: March 15, 2010, 01:04:28 am »

Right, it seemed like you[PraguePride] were counterpointing to my suggestion when we're talking about mostly separate things.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #69 on: April 23, 2010, 09:36:40 pm »

Hey, I was wondering if it's possible to modify the minimum "normal topic" "hot topic" "very hot topic" counts?

And also, if anyone knows whether this count is determined by how many times *you* have posted, or represents the total number of posts to a given thread?
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Mason11987

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #70 on: July 19, 2010, 04:25:16 pm »

Okay, I just discovered this thread and I'm going to give it a bump and see what happens.



It looks like Granite26 had the fantastic idea (in early '09) of using the wiki to help with organizing suggestions.  From reading this thread that idea didn't seem to be dismissed by the community but people just sort of stopped talking about it.

I don't know how active Granite is on the forums (hasn't edited the wiki in 3 months) but I personally think there is a lot of merit to this idea and I would definitely be interested in helping to (re)create some sort of index and organization of suggestions on the wiki.

While the wiki can be edited by anyone, it can also be tracked, through the history, by anyone and hopefully the removal of ideas will be an uncommon occurrence.  Obviously we'd want to kick it off with the eternal suggestions and then expand on some of the ideas as they are presented in the forum.  Another benefit of the wiki is that we can have suggestion categories that we can easily add/remove/merge as it makes sense without hampering Toady in making new forums.

Toady mentioned that it's hard to refer to the wiki in devnotes.  Well the "permanent link" on the side will get you that exact page as it was at that time, so you won't ever lose ideas that you think were particularly useful.  Of course this will not at all replace this forum.  In fact I wouldn't even expect it would have a large impact on duplicate threads, but I'm fairly certain nothing could really fix that. ;)

So if noone else minds, I'd like to bring this thread back to the topic in the OP and discuss the merits and (unless everyone thinks it's stupid) the implementation of a solid suggestions index to assist both Toady, and players looking to see if their idea is unique.  Even if it helps with just one of the two though I'd consider it a complete success.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2010, 04:39:55 pm by Mason11987 »
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Mason11987

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #72 on: July 24, 2010, 02:27:05 pm »

^^^ It's still a solid idea, in my opinion.  I've done some ad-hoc tagging/indexing on the forums, which could hopefully serve as a starting point:

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=60362.msg1360635#msg1360635
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58502.msg1298463#msg1298463
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=58453.msg1297239#msg1297239
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=55919.msg1210402#msg1210402
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=54905.msg1184632#msg1184632
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=49525.msg1059716#msg1059716

Thanks!

I was really hoping a sticky thread with a new post would get a bunch of responses within 5 days. Maybe another flash of "new" will do it :).

I'm going to start thinking about and implementing this today.  I never recieved a response from Granite, but I might drop him a note on his talk page and start work on something on the wiki.

Vyckeil

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #73 on: August 22, 2010, 10:19:17 pm »

Proper use of Child Boards could simply fix this problem. Just visit http://sc4devotion.com/forums/index.php and you'll know what I mean. (It's a SimCity4 custom content site, and a very well made one at that). Having child boards intergrated inside the main forum index with an eternal topic and a big *** READ FORUM RULES BEFORE POSTING!!! *** title in it.

You could branch everything with this method. Just adding a seperate childs for [Core Game Mecanics Suggestions], [Variety/Flavor Suggestions] and [Main Suggestion/Concerns] would be a big step. This is all just my suggestions here, so don't jump the gun.

Core Game Mecanics could encompass child boards like:
  • AI - Auto-vein Mining, Routes/Roads/Hallways, Distances and Access, Job Priorities, etc.
  • Tile Value Tracking - Soil Nutrients and Fertilizers, Temperature/Seasons, Cave-ins and Pillar Support, Water/Magma/Sand Algorythms, Irrigation, etc.
  • Other Value Tracking - Nutrition(Hunger) and Hydration(Thirst), Creature/Plant Health and Growth, Food Shelflife, Diseases (for creatures and plants alike), etc.
  • User Setting Preferences - Uniforms, Kitchen Settings, Economic Stones Settings, Stockpile and Workshop Profiles, Embark Profiles, Save Files, etc.
  • Other - FPS Optimizing, Multi-Core and 64-bit, Graphics and Utilities Support, etc.

Variety/Flavor could encompass child boards like:
  • Politics - Nobles, Sects/Social Classes/Guilds, Religion, Migrants, Trading and Envoys, Mandates, Justice, etc.
  • Economy - Rents, Taxes, Jobs/Pay and Coins, Entertainers, Wenches/Cooks/Service Industry, Shops, etc.
  • Creatures & Plants - Megabeats, Wild/Domestic Animals, Pests, Tree-Planting, Weeds, Sugar/Flour/Spices/Herbs/Medecines/Cooking Oil, etc.
  • Items - Clothes, Weapons, Armor, Instruments, Pottery, Tapisseries & Carpets, Painting, Potted Plants, Bookshelves, Mecanisms, etc.
  • Workshop and Rooms - Bars, Arenas, Stadiums/Sports, Libraires/Schools, Ranches/Milking, Orchards, Oven/Backeries, Charcuteries, Windmills/Pumps/Sprinklers, etc.
  • Custom Labors
  • Worldgen - Aquifer Settings, Biomes, Evil/Good and Calm/Savage Settings, Custom Stone Layers/Gems/Resources, Cavern Diversity, etc.
  • Other - Magic, Alchemy, etc

Main Concerns would encompass child boards regarding one subject, such as:
  • Improved Farming
  • Military
  • Healthcare
  • Other - Perceived-as-Bug, Disapointments/Whining,etc.

Within each Main Child Boards, individuals could create a new topic to talk about their whole idea (kinda like a mod suggestion) usually encompassing various subjects, just beneath the Forum Rules sticky.

A fresh start is require for this to work, but I don't think its a bad thing.

With each topic becoming more important, another child board could be added.
Most of these are interchangeable, just put the main idea in the right category and use Quotes/Links for implementation/explanation.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2010, 10:53:22 pm by Vyckeil »
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Granite26

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Re: Suggestions Forum Organization
« Reply #74 on: August 26, 2010, 01:09:15 pm »

Boards are definitly the right answer for discussions.  The part where the wiki shines is letting people know about the common idea threads.

Something like a pro-con discussion about gunpowder or steam, or whatever, to get people up to date on current dev/forummer philosophy.

Hell, maybe even putting the dev notes/ power goals/ etc up on the wiki in 'no edit' form with each line item having a link to it's own page, and that page a link back to the main FoF style discussion for it, along with any major ideas that have come out of discussion.

Personally, I'm a big fan of the layout of my tech thread, where the top is just an outline list of what's been discussed, and the discussion is below it.  Making the first post a wiki link would keep 1 person from having to do all the maintaining, and a wiki page supports discussion page rules of what applies and consensus building discussions rather than OP fiat.  Kudos to anyone who can figure out how to make the forum post OP pull up the latest text of the wiki as it's text.


Short version:  People don't want to read long threads, but a short outline in an accessible place would help newcombers to the topic/browsers without being onerous. 
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