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Author Topic: Little Ideas-Request for Comment  (Read 6872 times)

Little

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Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« on: March 08, 2009, 02:39:14 am »

A few ideas...Might be added to in the future. Any feedback/improvement? Please don't bother with tl;dr.

Multiple Factions

Crime: Gangs

Crime should be a factor in the game, with the level of organization and influence growing as the game progresses, either hindered or aided by the player. Crime could be in the form of multiple gangs that are at constant war with eachother. Side effects could be major gang wars in the Industrial District. The effects of gangs would drive up Conservative views on Police Power, and Gun Control. Police presence would be drastically increased in any district where gangs have fought, and a side effect of this could be your LCS hideout being discovered.

There could be three gangs, and you could gain favor with one by damaging it's enemies. This would take the form of attacking a gang safehouse(crackhouse?) and killing as many Gang Members as possible.  Gangs could attack your safehouses as reprisals, and although the attack could be fought off easily in mid-game, it would attract a lot of police attention.

Another option for gang antagonism is selling brownies. You could be asked to stop by a representative from the gang whose turf your enroaching on, as your cutting into their profits. Refusal could lead to drive bys on your members, police tips to your location/wanted members, and gang sieges.

Negotiation with gangs could take the form of a sub-screen. The Sleepers tab would be renamed 'Organizations' with Sleepers being 1, and Diplomacy 2. Favors for a gang could also be assassinating the Police Chief(when implemented). Effects of good relations could be increased brownie profit(assuming you have gang permission) and gangs attacking locations as a distraction.

For example: Gang A attacks Gentle men's Club, causing police to swarm there. While police are occupied, the LCS attacks the Courthouse. The cops would take much longer to arrive at the courthouse.

Crime: Mafia

The Mafia could be in charge of running the chopshop(when implemented) and the Black Market. Increased relations with the Mafia would lead to a drastic drop in BM prices. Mafia would support Liberal Positions on Privacy and Police Power, but support Conservative Gun Control. They also could help individual LCS members go into hiding(see below).

New Locations

Banks

I always imagined banks to have a normal lobby, then an extensive back area. The lobby would be public access, while the back would not. Deep in the bank would be the Vault. The Vault would be opened after disabling two alarms(agility+security, invalid if alarm already gone off) and a high Security roll. I was thinking cash payoff should be somewhere in the 5-10K region. The bank would be patrolled by legions of Security Officers who would travel around in PATROL icons. Each patrol would have roughly ten Security Guards. Police response would be incredibly fast, and heat would rise dramatically.

Misc.

Individuals going into Hiding

I would like the ability to send individual LCS members go into hiding, then their next-in-command temporarily taking over their functions until the member comes out of hiding. This option could be selected from the character sheet with the option of 'H'ide. This would be done in the case of heat being accumulated to the point where you fear of a siege, and want to send valuable Liberals into hiding. Several options for hiding could be available, with the cheapest being Canada(with a chance of arrest and extradition, or in C+ situations, high chance of assassination/torture of hidden members) and the most expensive being Brazil(no chance of extradition/ low chance of negative events).

Make the Police scary again!

What the hell happened to Police sieges? I mean, this isn't a simulation, but come on! I think Police sieges should be much more common. For example, if my founder went and killed six people off the bat, in the current build, there's almost no ill effects. I think he should have maybe a week to ditch before the Homeless Shelter is sieged. I think heat should accumulate on individuals as well as locations, with the possibility of FBI's Most Wanted List(random genned names, with your members being thrown in once badass enough). The amount of heat required should be lowered by a lot, and the amount of heat generated for violent crimes driven up.

Rap Sheet
It'd be cool to have a place in Character Profile under the option of 'C'rimes. I think it should have total crimes committed, what they are wanted for at the current time, and how much time spent in the slammer(jail) to date.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 06:11:55 pm »

Quote
Mafia would support Liberal Positions on Privacy and Police Power, but support Conservative Gun Control.

Excellent! I have been trying to think what political agenda the Apolitical Crime Squad would have. But how would that be different from the Libertarian Crime Squad (which would desire L+ laws privacy and police power, C+ laws on Gun Control and prehaps C+ on Death Penatly?) I guess the Apolitical Crime Squad isn't interested in passing a Consitutional Amendment.

In reality though, any Apolitical Crime Squad would be more interested in making money, and so would negatively affect Police, Privacy, and Death Penatly laws until the Apolitical Crime Squad gets destroyed.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2009, 06:17:19 pm by Servant Corps »
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ChemicalVengence

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2009, 03:17:47 pm »

The gang ideas here are pretty good. I always thought there should be a bit more to those gang members, since they seem to all be on one big team and not really doing anything at all, aside from snorting crack apparently....but having them actually fight you would be a great idea, and it would be a good way to bolster the liberal cause by getting other little factions like them on your side, since gang members are among the most readily available people with gun skills.
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cinque

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2009, 07:32:52 pm »

banks, bombs, armored cars
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Gimmick Account

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2009, 05:26:44 pm »

I've been thinking about this idea at work lately. Here's another wall of text that also deals with only tangentially-related concepts:

There should be a 'Political Interest' meter (measured in percent) for each district, and also one for each generated individual (which takes the local interest level as its 'base' and then modifies it a bit depending on profession, age, stats and a certain random factor). The more affluent areas of a city will have a more politically engaged populace, both liberal and conservative. While going out on missions may change the stance of the politically aware part of the nation on many issues, it shouldn't actually make the oblivious more interested in politics for the most part (Radio and TV hijackings being the exception); you'd still need to find a more direct way to establish a link to your co-citizens and convince them to read more than just the sports pages of their newspaper. This can be done through various activities such as graffitti and liberal disobedience and whatnot. All of these activities should slowly raise the district's 'Political Interest' level.

Uninterested citizens will be much more difficult to engage in conversation (although seduction should not be affected), and convincing them to donate cash or join the LCS will also be much more time intensive (in fact, that is what the primary effect of those discussions should be: raising the interest meter with each successful meeting until the person is 'ready'). Interested individuals will have a higher chance of sticking around and fighting for their beliefs during conflicts (although nothing openly suicidal like an unarmed secretary charging a guy with body armor and an M4). The most important sign of an engaged citizenry is a high liberal turnout at the polls, less interested people will have a tendency to vote for the status quo, whatever that is at that point in the game (doesn't necessarily have to be conservative), or in extreme cases not to vote at all, which also helps the conservatives because they have more 'ideologues' to start with.

The industrial district is special in that it will be home to several gangs (although arch-conservative health care laws, if implemented, could turn the free clinic into an abandoned building for a gang to take control of, so the disease could spread to the wealthier districts as well). While they continue their activities, political interest in that district will steadily decrease (maybe with a small spillover effect for the other districts as well), as people have more pressing concerns (getting mugged on the way home, having their car stolen, having to ransom a kidnapped relative, being randomly murdered in the streets, etc.). Since political interest is essentially an effectiveness modifier for issues, your efforts in various courthouses and genetics labs will be noticed by a scant few until you tackle this problem. If you really want people to listen to your agenda, improve the neighbourhood! Bring change, not words!

Gangs could be dealt with in several ways. The most obvious way to remove a gang member from the equation is to beat him until his body dies. If you do this with enough gang leaders (or turns them into sleepers or whatever), the organization should collapse and disband. However, new gangs could surface if social conditions are unfavourable and not all turf is yet taken by others. Gangs could also split off from existing ones if there is internal strife (could be weak leadership, or unpopular rule changes). Another way to tackle the problem is by gradually convincing gang leaders to mend their ways. Each gang should have their own set of rules (once more about the gang is known, they could be displayed just like the current national law screen). For example, 'Robbery [Yes/No]', 'Drug Dealing [Hard/Soft/No]', 'Firearms [Illegal/Legal/No]', 'Kidnapping [Yes/No]', 'Community Support (amounts to looking after the wounded and the elderly of the group, but could be expanded by LCS intervention to non-members, too) [All/Gang/No]'. With enough respect and a high persuasion skill, the LCS could eventually 'pull' a gang towards the desired agenda and turn them into a beneficial factor.

A problem that comes up here is the game's binary friend/foe system. Gang members, unless encountered in a CCS hideout, are always Liberal or Moderate. It's currently not possible to target those, and if you hit them accidently, you would alienate a lot of people. I suggest an additional 'faction' tag that can be applied to any individual. If known by the LCS, it would appear to the left of their name in the encounter screen, and take the form of an ASCII symbol. For certain institutions, this symbol would be pre-set (the LCS should always be a green heart, the CCS always a red dollar sign), for randomly generated groups like gangs, the symbols should be random as well. The 'group tag', if present, should override political affiliation and allow 'duelling' for organizations known to be hostile towards each other with lower or no penalties. This will allow for gang fights and LCS action against them. I know that all of this is rather far-reaching, but I don't think that the idea goes against the character of the game because criminal gangs exist mostly for financial benefit, they are not born out of a political struggle like the LCS.
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Little

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2009, 07:38:06 pm »

Great ideas!

I was thinking that the safe houses could be raided, and Gang Members belonging to the Gang be killed. Gangs could eventually degenerate into open warfare(the guys on the west coast have some problems with that in my country). For example:

Gang A is on the way to attack Karpet Garments, for not paying turf fees/protection fees. You have sleepers in Gang A, and Group B is slowly being turned to your views, so you tell Gang B about the raid. Gang B intercepts Gang A(how to do conflict when your not involved is a faint idea) and annihilates them. Gang B kidnaps wounded members of Gang A and passes them over to you for interrogation. You discover A's bases (I was thinking gang safe houses could be like 'Unattended Warehouse' or 'Abandoned Church') and hand the info over to Gang B. Gang B launches raids, kills a bloody score of Gang A, and takes over their turf. Plus, they owe the LCS multiple favors.

The concepts illustrated are diplomacy, which could be handled through an abstract screen. When you send a diplomat(maybe toggle able on character screen, default off?), they head off to one of the cafes. Once they arrive, you could be presented with the other organizations mood, and various toggle able option that would be presented with your deal, reminiscent of interrogation. The other faction could add objects that would make it acceptable, and other additions depending on mood. Options for diplomacy could be:

Release of hostages
Location of safehouses
Attack Group A
Money(how much)
Arms(guns)

Other ideas presented are the idea of inter-organizational conflicts that the LCS is not involved with? How could your group discover them? The news, sleepers, maybe offers from the groups with trades of money for help?
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Gimmick Account

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009, 05:43:07 pm »

I return after a day of further brainstorming.

I've further refined my ideas about gang politics. There should be gangs for all three ideologies.

  • Conservative gangs, much like the CCS, cannot be negotiated with or 'corrupted' and will be very aggressive towards the LCS once it breaks onto the political scene (they will come asking for 'protection' money often, demanding high sums; will also actively hunt for your graffitti artists and other activists operating in their district)
  • Moderate gangs, which should be most of them (they're not very political people), also start the game fairly hostile and will not take long to come knocking on your door for money (unless you live in the homeless shelter), but the big difference between them and the conservative ones is that they can be reasoned with. Sometimes, a gang member can be found at one of the tables in the various recreational areas Little mentioned. When spoken to, there will be an additional option of arranging a meeting with the boss (this will require some persuasion skill). This meeting would work just like the other conversation screens in terms of game mechanics, with the gang leader slowly warming up to your ideas over several successive talks (which have to be arranged anew through a middleman each time). Once their attitude is positive enough, you can ask for an incremental change in one of their internal rules. This will set the attitude back quite a bit, so diplomatic affairs with gangs will require a long-term effort.
  • Liberal gangs should mostly leave you alone once the existence of the LCS is revealed, but until that happens, they might harass you occasionally. They are easier to influence than the other types of gangs. Fighting them openly will decrease public respect for the LCS. An alternative would be instigating a fight between them and a stronger gang, Little's diplomacy suggestions could play out wonderfully here.

A gang's 'official' ideology is determined by the ideology of its leader. Changing the rules beyond a certain threshold without an accompaning change in leadership will cause unrest in the gang (for example, a moderate gang having strict arms trade rules AND very liberal drug rules AND a policy of not commiting any muggings against the uninvolved is a moderate gang in name only). This will eventually result in a gang member from a more fitting ideology to challenge the boss for leadership of the group. If the newcomer wins, the gang's ideology changes accordingly. If not, gang-internal strife will still be lowered for a while.

Concerning the sharing of information with ideologically aligned gangs, I think it's best if you are informed by sleepers of an impending attack on another gang several turns in advance, just as it is if you were to be attacked. That leaves ample time to meet a gang representative and inform them. Or just give the player an option to pass on the information by phone/email as soon as the message comes up. Offscreen battles between gangs could work out the same way as CCS attacks against sites. No problem here, I think.

Here are the various gang rules I've come up with, so far:

  • Drug Dealing: Can be either HARD DRUGS, SOFT DRUGS or NONE. Since this game is satire, it's probably inappropriate to model the negative social effects of drug-related crimes. Still, it's something that slightly increases political interest if the gangs allow the purchase of drugs and the state does not (no such law currently exists in the game, but it's such a typical liberal/conservative issue that it's bound to be implemented one day). Most liberal and moderate gangs should have this set to HARD DRUGS by default. Conservative gangs are more...conservative.
  • Arms Trading: Can be ILLEGAL, LEGAL and NONE. This determines what kind of weapons the gang members are carrying and illegally selling. The definition of 'illegal weapons' varies according to the current weapon laws. Legal weapons, even in the most restrictive situation, include at the very least various melee utensils. NONE means that the gang does not engage in arms trade, but many members will still carry some light legal weapons for personal protection. Having this at anything higher than NONE is obviously very un-liberal and will cause trouble in the neighbourhood (decreases political interest, causes higher police presence on the streets, especially for activists). However, this issue presents the player with a dilemma, since a poorly-armed gang will be at a disadvantage during gang wars and may need LCS manipulation (take that as you will) of the competition to survive in the long term. All but the liberal gangs will have this at ILLEGAL at the start.
  • Theft: Can be ALL, ENEMIES or NONE. This determines whether the gang will commit acts of robbery, burglary and theft; and whom these acts will be directed against. They may even visit your apartment if you leave it completely unattended! ALL encompasses, well, everyone. ENEMIES will limit these activities to hostile gangs or ideological enemies (which means that liberal gangs with this rule, or moderates with which you have good relations will never steal from you). NONE means that the gang does not engage in theft at all and is a prerequisite for long-term neighbourhood peace, anything else damages political interest. This issue should vary between ALL and ENEMIES for the gangs at game start, depending on what's needed to balance out other rules and keep them safely inside their 'proper' ideology.
  • Kidnapping: Can be ALL, ENEMIES or NONE. Determines if the gang will resort to the kidnapping of individuals to extort money (gangs should never have political goals, that's what the CCS is for). Settings are the same as with the 'Theft' issue. So are the political interest penalties. Sometimes, gangs that trust the LCS (or the founder, if the LCS hasn't revealed itself yet) could ask for an 'outsider' to free a kidnapped member of their gang from the hideout of another group. Accepting the request would trigger a mission in one of the industrial apartment complexes for the next day. The squad (which must have room for at least one more member) will need to find the lock-up cell and get the person out of there. Upon their liberation, they will join the LCS for the duration of the mission, and after that they'll disappear back into obscurity. Success will result in significant goodwill from the gang the hostage belonged to.
  • Protection: Can be YES, NO or FREE. Determines whether the gang will show up at other people's doorsteps (including yours) to 'ask' for money in exchange for 'protection' (nice house you got there, would be a shame if...). YES means that they'll do it, NO means they won't resort to such tactics, and FREE means that they will look after the neighbourhood without asking for anything in return. The last option is so bleeding-heart liberal that not even liberal gangs default to it. You'll have to convince them over the course of the game. Non-liberal gangs start at YES. Protection rackets are very bad for political interest and their continued existence will make people lose hope in the system. On the other hand, if you can get a gang to patrol the neighbourhood for free, decreasing crime, it'll prove your liberal methods (reform, not punishment) right and cause a small, steady increase in political interest. FREE will also often cause allied gang members to appear in your support during sieges (except when it's the national guard) if you choose to fight it out.
  • Community Support: Can be NONE, OWN or ALL. This issue sets the group's stance on material support for those who can no longer actively contribute to the cause, either due to injury, illness or old age. NONE means that these individuals are left to their own devices, even if they were previously distinguished members of the gang. OWN means that the gang will reward loyalty by supporting former members and their families in their old age or in the event of premature retirement due to crippling injuries. ALL means that the group will do this for their entire neighbourhood, disregarding gang affiliations. Again, this option is too goody-two-shoes for even liberal gangs to default to, the LCS will have to do some persuading for any group to change its internal rules accordingly. Non-liberal gangs start with either NONE or OWN, liberal ones always with OWN. The ALL setting will have a small positive effect on political interest, for the same reason as with the 'Protection' issue.

Well, I hope this is a good enough first stab at making gangs into an interesting mid-game mechanic. Assimilating/destroying all gangs will probably not be necessary, nor will it be required. The primary goal of the game is of course still the liberalization of the United States, and I don't think it would do the game good to dilute the ideological system by having something else than one of the two extremes as a goal for any group. I'm saying this because I've heard suggestions of Feminist Crime Squads or Libertarian ones, all vying for a 'place in the sun', so to say. These gangs on the other hand, don't care about higher politics and will never take control of more than a few crackhouses (although they might assert their influence in a wider area through blackmailing and similiar stuff). They're flavour, in other words. I hope nobody thinks I'm trying to imagine them into anything more central to the game.

My last suggestion for today (I promise!) are the symbols for the various default organizations that will show up next to an affiliated person's name. These few will always be the same in every game:

Liberal Crime Squad
Conservative Crime Squad (well, it's a cross... I thought it was appropriate)
$ Mercenaries
Police Department
Fire Department
Army
© CIA

All other gang tags will be randomly generated, as will be the gangs themselves. The respective gang logo should replace the current 'GNG' spray tags.

And that's all. Please don't hate me for this Great Wall of Text, the whole thing just kinda wrote itself once I got started.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2009, 06:05:06 pm »

Just to let you know what I am planning, I have a template for creating political Organizations, which I plan on creating the Libertarian Crime Squad and the Radical Moderates. (I am unsure how to do the Feminist Crime Squad though. What Conservative thing would Feminists want?)

As of now, I cannot think of how to create "gangs" that aren't interested in politics at all. I can see their attacks move society more conservative, and how you can get them to raid your safehouses, but...other than that...
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Little

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 06:38:34 pm »

Does anyone support me on making the cops tougher, and siege more often?
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 07:17:56 pm »

Yes.
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beorn080

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 10:44:17 pm »

Just to let you know what I am planning, I have a template for creating political Organizations, which I plan on creating the Libertarian Crime Squad and the Radical Moderates. (I am unsure how to do the Feminist Crime Squad though. What Conservative thing would Feminists want?)

As of now, I cannot think of how to create "gangs" that aren't interested in politics at all. I can see their attacks move society more conservative, and how you can get them to raid your safehouses, but...other than that...

If you make them hardcore feminists, they would want a total reversal of male run society. So gay marriage would be C+, as would police, since catching minor sex offenders and errant husbands would be a priority. Workers rights might also be C+, with the women making slaves of the men.
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EuchreJack

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2009, 12:24:42 am »

Well...feminists vary to the extreme.

Some feminists are lesbian, totally giving up on the male-dominated relationships.

Some feminists wouldn't want the cops to catch their affairs.

Most feminists only want slightly unequal treatment in their favor.

On the other hand, they probably would support the use of sweatshop workers, would support animal research, and not care about flag burning.

I doubt they would want anything C+, but there are a few things they would want C.

In the 60's, feminists would have wanted the Tax Code to be L+, so women didn't feel the need to marry rich men just to get money.  But now, many feminists are rich, powerful women in their own right.  They've matured, and probably would want a moderate tax code that lets them keep what they have, but damages the male-dominated uber-rich.

mainiac

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2009, 01:32:11 am »

Most feminists only want equal treatment.

Fixed that for you.
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Rezan

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2009, 01:48:45 am »

I agree with EuchreJack here. Feminists want the advantage. I despise feminism because it's such a flip-floppy thing. One day, women are this, then the other day, women are that. They say women are weak or strong depending on whether it suits their agenda.

Everything else seems about right, too.
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Cheeetar

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Re: Little Ideas-Request for Comment
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2009, 01:49:11 am »

If you make them hardcore feminists, they would want a total reversal of male run society. So gay marriage would be C+,
Again, gay marriage applies to females as well.
I agree with EuchreJack here. Feminists want the advantage. I despise feminism because it's such a flip-floppy thing. One day, women are this, then the other day, women are that. They say women are weak or strong depending on whether it suits their agenda.

Everything else seems about right, too.
One woman does not speak for all of feminism. What one Christian says Christianity is about is different from another Christians idea. This applies to everything.
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I've played some mafia.

Most of the time when someone is described as politically correct they are simply correct.
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