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Author Topic: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)  (Read 4105 times)

Ampersand

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 07:04:52 am »

I agree with Aquizzar on every point. Maybe this doesn't hit home for a lot of people, but it does for me, given that I live in Texas and I've SEEN what all this is about. Civilian deaths are up, simply because the Cartels aren't afraid any more. Sure, mostly these are Mexican civilians, but that isn't the point; it proves that the organizations are more than willing to make terroristic strikes, and unafraid of the possible consequences.

I do however believe that as of now, Gun Law is fairly good. Enforcement is the singular problem, and I'm not entirely sure it's really possible.

I have a distinct feeling, though, that these cartels are mostly making their money off of marijuana, and that legalizing it would yield a huge blow to the business.
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Sir_Geo

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 11:18:41 am »

One of the points that I made earlier was that there aren't all that many civilians killed. It hasn't been made very clear in the news reports that I've been reading but for the most part the people that are killed in this violence are a part of the drug trade and are killed when rival cartels order hits or during skirmishes between cops/soldiers and the gangs.
You also have to keep in mind the fact that except for a few incidents the majority of the violence has occurred in border towns where the drugs are moved through. This has spilled over in to the U.S. plenty of times but it isn't really publicized much even though at times it gets pretty brutal.
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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2009, 01:14:08 pm »

Problem solved.
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Guy Montag

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #18 on: March 19, 2009, 07:16:54 am »

Thats actually a very well written essay and accurate analysis of the situation, I think. You are right in the fact that the US government would rather ignore the problem, since most of the cartel-related violence and insanity happens on the other side of the border. The Mexicans have some US funding from the US gov't and we train their federales, but I'm sure something more could be done to deal with the situation.

The drug trade and market isn't going to go away.  Making hard drugs legal would'nt solve anything. Not sure a society where you can drive down to the local supermarket and buy some crack or PCP would function at all and decriminalization doesn't stop the problem either. Its basically just giving the thumbs up to the cartels that they can trade carte blanc and run rampant without any interferrence and it would encourage more people to buy the shit and expand the market even more.

The drug problem is as old as the Opium wars, a sort of "war on drugs" in its own right.

I'm not sure there is even a real solution to the issue. Clamping down on the border with the National Guard isn't practical... too much ground to cover and national guardsmen don't want to deploy to the border constantly with what is supposed to be their "part-time" job. The Active Army would be a better solution, I think.

Also, from the gov'ts standpoint they really don't want to bring in the military to enforce drug laws for many reasons.

Banning "assault" weapons won't stop the criminals from being armed. The Mexican military is often corrupt and acts as muscle for the cartels during their border incursions. I think once we start alienating people's civil liberties to mitigate the abilities of drug cartels, we have effectively lost in more ways then one.

From the government's standpoint, there really is not any good or easy or obvious solutions for the problem. Enforcing the laws and and discouraging people from smoking/snorting/shooting up the shit the cartels are peddling. I find it ironic that more attention is paid to educating people on the dangers of smoking cigarettes then anything else. No border towns are being overun by armed thugs to sell people cigarettes.

Maybe the best solution would be to straight out send in our military into Mexico and declare a real tangible "War on Drugs" on the cartels there. I don't think the Mexican or US government really wants that. Its hardly a practical solution, but it might just come down it that if the problem worsens in the future.

BTW, was'nt an American war in Mexico mentioned in Robocop?
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Bromor Neckbeard

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #19 on: March 19, 2009, 01:52:55 pm »

Quote from: Guy Montag
The drug trade and market isn't going to go away.  Making hard drugs legal would'nt solve anything. Not sure a society where you can drive down to the local supermarket and buy some crack or PCP would function at all and decriminalization doesn't stop the problem either. Its basically just giving the thumbs up to the cartels that they can trade carte blanc and run rampant without any interferrence and it would encourage more people to buy the shit and expand the market even more.

But...

Quote from: Guy Montag
No border towns are being overun by armed thugs to sell people cigarettes.  Banning "assault" weapons won't stop the criminals from being armed. The Mexican military is often corrupt and acts as muscle for the cartels during their border incursions. I think once we start alienating people's civil liberties to mitigate the abilities of drug cartels, we have effectively lost in more ways then one.

I agree with this, however.  Notice:
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,135999,00.html

Yeah, it's a little out of date, but Polytech and Norinco haven't gone out of business since this article was published, and they're not going to stop selling assault rifles to anybody with cash.  Even if we banned all "assault" rifles in the U.S. tomorrow, that would inconvenience the cartels for about five seconds before they went to other markets, like these legitimate Chinese companies who don't seem to care much about whether their products are legal in the countries they're sold to.
« Last Edit: March 20, 2009, 07:37:28 am by Bromor Neckbeard »
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Aqizzar

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #20 on: March 19, 2009, 09:16:13 pm »

I suppose I should post here again.

So, drugs.  Cocaine is still the headliner, but it's actually run into problems.  Since the late 80s, cocaine has somewhat fallen out of fashion in the U.S.  Demand is still there and even growing, but not as fast as entrepreneurial farmers and shippers in Colombia had hoped.  Rather than letting a market surplus drive the price down, drug trafficers in Mexico have expanded the distribution lines they already had, and have developed a bigger market there.  So now Mexico has a cocaine addiction problem too.

The other big-name drug these days is methamphetamine, the new replacement for oxy-contin addicts.  The business difference between cocaine and meth is that meth doesn't need to be grown or have any really special conditions to it's production.  Meth labs are a thriving cottage industry in the Mid-West now (it's about the only industry in the Mid-West that is thriving).  Nonetheless, there's plenty of traffic across the border in meth, being an attractive market and all.


Those are both nasty and crippling drugs in themselves.  But beyond cocaine and meth lurks the biggest, baddest drug of them all.  The seed of Satan himself, the lure of all children, and destroyer of all that is true and pure - good old fashioned pot.  The recent figures I've heard from estimates is that marijuana constitutes 75% of the drug trade from Mexico into the U.S.  I don't know if that's 75% aggregate value or volume, but either way it's the backbone of the drug trade.  And even with all that inward traffic, it's the biggest domestic cash crop in four or five states now, including California where it competes against oranges and wine.

From a purely practical standpoint, there is every reason to therefor legalize marijuana.  It's a massive industry generating loads of money waiting to be taxed and regulated, the same way as tobacco or alcohol.  Putting it in the hands of legitimate business would knock the legs out from under the cartels, take a titanic burden off of honest law enforcement, and huge chunk out the overdcrowded prison system.  Whatever ill effect legal pot might have (and realistically speaking, it's barely illegal now) surely can't be worse than the privatized warzone and nation of convicts it's created by being taboo.  Discussion of the legality of harder drugs would be rendered moot, because without pot, drug suppliers wouldn't have the resources to oust a then-unencumbered law enforcement anyway.


And my word on guns.  I'm certainly cynical enough to know that criminalizing heavy firearms doesn't keep them away from anybody who's willing to break other laws in the first place.  That doesn't mean they should be legal.

The 2nd Amendment was written in a fledgling nation that had just fought a war of independence, which saw itself as much an alliance of separate countries than a unified America.  It was a concession to militiamen that they could stay militiamen, since they also comprised virtually all the force that had fought that war.  And it was written in a time when everyone had access to the same weaponry, when the pinnacle of handheld firearms was a massive, clumsy rifle that took a trained soldier most of a minute to reload.

I'm just going to say it - this notion that Americans have an inalienable right to firepower is idiocy.  It's a dangerously quaint notion of reliance on personal responsibility completely out of proportion to either modern weapons or modern crime, and has absolutely no place in the 21st century.

My solution?  Semi-auto pistols, pump shotguns, single-shot and carbine rifles, those are all fine.  Easy tools for criminals, but we have to be realistic.  Anything more than that though?  Automatic handhelds, rifles with clips, and other such stuff - make it illegal to make such weapons without a direct purchase order from a government entity.  And put the F back in ATF making sure nothing falls off the truck.

I'm well aware that people who wanted such weapons could find them elsewhere.  For all my criticism of the same attitude in regards to drugs, this is one area where I think principle can be allowed to trump logic.  America should stop contributing to it's own problems, and if criminalizing even the production of heavier weapons accomplishes absolutely nothing, at least the nation's law enforcement can have the dignity of not being killed with weapons made by the people they exist to protect.

More than anything, I think the whole issue is in need of massively more peace keeping and law enforcement resources, starting with changing the philosophy of policing, from top to bottom.  Every time I see a cop stopping someone for an out headlight or an unleashed dog, I was to yell "Don't you have real crime to fight?"  But I could rant for hours about that, so I'll just stop now.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 06:40:24 pm »

Mexico has, without fanfare, legalized possession of drugs. Note that it does not legalize actually selling drugs, just possessing them, which I believe to be a a very fine and useful compromise. I believe that this follows in the tradition of several South American countries and Portgual. The main reason for this law is to allow for Mexico to focus on the drug dealers, not on the drug users.

A very similar law was proposed in 2006, but the Bush Administration put pressure on Mexico to reject this law. Today, this law is now in effect.

So, Aqizzar, are you happy?
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Cthulhu

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2009, 07:17:21 pm »

Quote
Meth labs are a thriving cottage industry in the Mid-West now (it's about the only industry in the Mid-West that is thriving)

As an Ohioan, I can confirm that this is pretty much true.
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Vester

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2009, 08:04:49 pm »

Not American, but...

Well said, Aqizzar.
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Jualin

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2009, 02:53:51 pm »

Posting it here seems like pearls before swine, Aqizzar. However, as hollow as it may be, I thank you for the in-depth approach to this topic.

I'm not even quite sure if there's any space left for anything else but arguing over the individual points you brought up.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #25 on: August 31, 2009, 08:40:49 pm »

Never expected to see this thread bumped to life.  All things considered, I suppose there's not much ground left to cover, and I'm not much for drawn out followups anymore.  At any rate, thanks for reading, again.


Mexico has, without fanfare, legalized possession of drugs. Note that it does not legalize actually selling drugs, just possessing them, which I believe to be a a very fine and useful compromise. I believe that this follows in the tradition of several South American countries and Portgual. The main reason for this law is to allow for Mexico to focus on the drug dealers, not on the drug users.

A very similar law was proposed in 2006, but the Bush Administration put pressure on Mexico to reject this law. Today, this law is now in effect.

So, Aqizzar, are you happy?

It's intriguing, that's for sure.  The devil is in the details of course.  As the article said, few people in Mexico were ever actually arrested and tried on minor possession charges (unlike the United States where it's 60% of the prison population) - rather, in Mexico minor possession was a source of supplementary income for the police force.  I.E. without that, Mexican law officers have one less reason to go out on the street.

Apparently the street vendor business is exploding because of the excessive supply laying around.  Naturally, allowing people to walk around with minor amounts of drugs is going to increase that even more, illegal or otherwise.  By the sound of it, what will probably happen in Mexico is that street sellers will move down the ladder to the level of blind-eye crime, and the new source of bribe income.  I guess eventually this would cascade it's way upward, until there's so much graft and so little enforcement that the entire prohibition of narcotics (most of them anyway) becomes a useless burden, and get's scrapped itself.  Mind you, I'm not rooting for this one way or another, that's just what it sounds like to me.

Will this translate to the United States?  No.  Not in literally at least a hundred years, especially the part about allowing small amounts of any prohibited substance like heroine and ecstasy.  As pointed out, it's the Obama administration's silence that's so notable.  If I were to hazard a guess as to why, I'd say it's because Obama and his people think they're geniuses at picking their battles, and believe trying to re-litigate international drugwar policy is a giant worthless attention-sink they don't need.  Not to mention being composed of people who at least recognize that the real world exists and operates of it's own accord, but it'll be a long time before anyone understands their motive.  At any rate, I hope that ex-presidential statement thing get's some more attention.  "Current drug-repression policies are firmly rooted in prejudices, fears and ideological visions," indeed.


By the way, in a hilariously exploded repeat of what happened in Colombia, Afghanistan has gone from exporting 185 metric tons of poppy opium in 2001, when the Taliban was living fat on the proceeds, to 7700 metric tons in 2008 under the auspices of the American military.  Good work guys, the bananas and chrysanthemums sure took off in Colombia, didn't they?
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #26 on: August 31, 2009, 09:11:09 pm »

How and why would the drug trade flourish under American occupation?
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Aqizzar

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #27 on: August 31, 2009, 09:21:05 pm »

I don't know really - by rights, it should have been more in the 90's when the Taliban, who heartily endorsed opium as a revenue stream, were in complete control.  I'm not saying the American military is causing an explosion in poppy growth, I'm saying that it's certainly not having any detrimental effect, which the Pentagon admits is one of it's biggest problems.
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JoshuaFH

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #28 on: August 31, 2009, 09:22:50 pm »

Maybe it was always like that, and we're just keeping better records now?
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Aqizzar

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Re: Impromptu Rambling About Robocop and Mexico (hueg)
« Reply #29 on: August 31, 2009, 09:25:09 pm »

Those numbers are estimates based on the amount of poppy products moving through other countries, especially into Europe, not on some secret stash of Taliban ledgers.  Even if it were just better observation, you don't go from a perceived supply of 185 tons to 7700 without some serious production.
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