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Author Topic: Change temperature to Celsius  (Read 32067 times)

Random832

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #105 on: March 23, 2009, 08:48:28 am »

Celsius is superior for food preparation and weather, the freezing and boiling points of water are very relevant to those pursuits

If the boiling point of water is relevant to your weather, tell me where this place is so I can stay far far away from it in the summer ;D

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Fahrenheit really has no absolute values with any relevance

Sure it does - 32 and 212. Well, for pure water at atmospheric pressure, anyway, but Celsius has the same problem. The main advantage to having a scale from 0 to 100 is that you know easily the percentage - but there's nothing meaningful to halfway or 3/4 of the way or 10% from freezing to boiling, so there's no superiority to 0 and 100 vs 32 and 212 for those two temperatures.
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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #106 on: March 23, 2009, 11:41:32 am »

Yeah, it's all the redneck's fault we're still in the dark age of measurement. I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.

Well, it's not like it'd be impossible to have an init switch from "metric" to "real" values.
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doctorspoof

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #107 on: March 23, 2009, 01:03:49 pm »

In all honesty, i don't mind the DF scale for temperature. If we can get used to strange tags, and the way the raws work, i'm sure we can get to grips with a slightly offset temperature scale. You yanks have been using one for ages anyway (yay for a snide dig at Fahrenheit) :P
There's a conversion on the DFwiki page about it, and i'm sure Toady had a reason for implementing it in the first place. Probably something along the lines of being unable to have negative values. Which would kinda stump ice warriors ^^

Even if it switched it kelvin, which imho would seem second best value system, it's still got the problem of things that are less than theoretical absolute zero. Seems non-sensical, but if you want a mega-badass ice demon or something, you only want the best ;)
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LumenPlacidum

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #108 on: March 23, 2009, 01:19:16 pm »

>:(
You did read the thread, right?  You're not the first person to have said this.  We are past using one scale.  We have established that the internal system could use the same scale it uses now, with the raws accepting multiple scales and translating them, and everyone would be happy.  As it stands, you don't actually see the specific temperatures while playing the game, and that's not likely to change.

While I think that the conversion system is a good idea, please don't use "we" like you're speaking for everyone as there's clearly no real consensus on the issue in the forum (evidence: the thread goes on...).

The method I keep bringing up doesn't, which is why I keep angrily insisting on it when people suggest a save-breaking one.  It would only make any mods utilizing the feature incompatible with previous versions, which happens quite often.

None of us really have any right to insist on anything that goes on with the game.  It would be presumptuous to try.

I don't mean to pick on you, LegoLord, but it seems like whatever anger there is in the thread is on account of this attitude.

The most compelling argument I've read here so far is that it's easier to find melting points and boiling points for different materials in SI units than it is otherwise.  If the ease of adding in temperatures for materials does not outweigh the hassle of making the shift, then I don't think it should be done.  There's little gain in this since it's a black-box system anyway once the game is running.  There are other changes that would be more compelling and probably more interesting than typing in a whole bunch of numbers.

It seems like if anyone were to really try to push for the SI system, you should go through the raws and convert all the numbers yourself to make a transition as easy as possible, then post it.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #109 on: March 23, 2009, 04:21:39 pm »

I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.
The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #110 on: March 23, 2009, 04:34:58 pm »

I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.
The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
America was formed by a revolution. Communism was formed by a revolution. Thus, America is a communistic country.
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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #111 on: March 23, 2009, 04:44:44 pm »

Perhaps I miss-wrote. I meant that I'm not suprised that someone invented a "connection" between communisim and Celsius.

I don't think that there actually IS a connection- I'm just not surprised that somebody thought there was.

Don't get the wrong impression of me, please.
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #112 on: March 23, 2009, 04:48:43 pm »

 Terribly sorry. However, I could not miss the opportunity to show how idiotic the idea was. All of my cynicism is directed at the idea, not the speaker.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #113 on: March 23, 2009, 05:45:39 pm »

It seems like if anyone were to really try to push for the SI system, you should go through the raws and convert all the numbers yourself to make a transition as easy as possible, then post it.
I supported the suggestion that the raws accept multiple units (including Fahrenheit, DF, what ever), not that we just start using Celsius.  I don't see why there are people that aren't happy with that.  It means anyone could use whatever they wanted to.  The discussion seems pointless to me, too.

And for the record, Noble Digger, I am American, so I can talk about it like that.  A lot of my teachers don't like the idea of the metric system.  The truth is that most Americans use English units for their daily life - it's the scientists and people of other internationally-working professions that use SI.
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doctorspoof

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #114 on: March 23, 2009, 05:53:21 pm »

The truth is that most Americans use English units for their daily life - it's the scientists and people of other internationally-working professions that use SI.

You realise we use celsius, right?
To my knowledge, we officially use all SI units, except on road signs, where we use y'olde imperial system of miles and yards.
Informally though, yeah, most people do still use imperial system. Especially older generations.

Aside from derailment..
I haven't really been keeping track, but are you guys saying you want the raws to accept all temperature scales, or are you asking for a seperate conversion utility?
Cos the raws are only notepad files... As far as i know they can't convert stuff. And i don't think the game will pick up letters (F for Fahrenheit, C for celsius, or whatever) in a numerical field.
Is this what you guys want changed?
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #115 on: March 23, 2009, 06:05:00 pm »

The truth is that most Americans use English units for their daily life - it's the scientists and people of other internationally-working professions that use SI.

You realise we use celsius, right?
To my knowledge, we officially use all SI units, except on road signs, where we use y'olde imperial system of miles and yards.
Informally though, yeah, most people do still use imperial system. Especially older generations.
That last part, yes, is what I am talking about.  Officially we use SI, but really, we use English.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Duke 2.0

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #116 on: March 23, 2009, 10:25:40 pm »

Aside from derailment..
I haven't really been keeping track, but are you guys saying you want the raws to accept all temperature scales, or are you asking for a seperate conversion utility?
Cos the raws are only notepad files... As far as i know they can't convert stuff. And i don't think the game will pick up letters (F for Fahrenheit, C for celsius, or whatever) in a numerical field.
Is this what you guys want changed?

 It would be best used ingame, as there are rather minor calculations Toady should know, having once been a math teacher. Yes, these are changes being asked so the RAWs will accept such letters.
 And while a text document is only storage, what we are asking is that when the game reads the files for the entity information, it would check for these signs and convert the number preceding them into DF units, dependent on what symbol was used.
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RAM

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #117 on: March 23, 2009, 11:37:35 pm »

Celsius is superior for food preparation and weather, the freezing and boiling points of water are very relevant to those pursuits

If the boiling point of water is relevant to your weather, tell me where this place is so I can stay far far away from it in the summer ;D

Quote
Fahrenheit really has no absolute values with any relevance

Sure it does - 32 and 212. Well, for pure water at atmospheric pressure, anyway, but Celsius has the same problem. The main advantage to having a scale from 0 to 100 is that you know easily the percentage - but there's nothing meaningful to halfway or 3/4 of the way or 10% from freezing to boiling, so there's no superiority to 0 and 100 vs 32 and 212 for those two temperatures.

Ambient temperature is not boiling point, but it does have the potential to come up when analysing weather patterns. It is particularly relevant with respect to percentages, as temperature has an influence on humidity...
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Silverionmox

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #118 on: March 24, 2009, 07:05:24 am »

I don't doubt for a moment that the metric system was connected to communism.
The metric system as we know it was introduced by revolutionary France. The same spirit gave rise to the Commmune of Paris, and formed a source of inspiration for Marx and the origin of the word communism.
America was formed by a revolution. Communism was formed by a revolution. Thus, America is a communistic country.
The American revolution was instigated by wealthy bourgeois wanting a larger share of the pie. The French one had other axes to grind, and the bad living conditions of the Parisian lower classes fueled it. What they had in common was the idea that a bad ruler can and should be deposed by his subjects.
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WJLIII3

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #119 on: March 24, 2009, 11:19:49 am »

If we want a very dwarfy system, I suggest an exponential curve mapping Dwarf scale to Kelvin.  I'll explain why at the bottom.

K = aebD + c
or
D = 1/b * ln((K - c) / a)

where a, b, and c are computed constants, D is degrees Dwarf, and K is degrees Kelvin.

The computation of the constants should come from this system of equations (I tried to solve it last night, but I suck at solving non-linear systems):

273.15 = ae0b + c
373.1339 = ae1000b + c
1700.0 = ae2000b + c

The result:  A temperature scale in which water freezes at 0, melts at 1000, and the average temperature of magma is 2000.  Certainly these would be considered the three most important temperatures for a dwarf?  And even if water freezing/melting is not as important as some other temperature, certainly the temperature of magma is.  (And conveniently, as far as I am aware, magma is always exactly one temperature in DF.)


Absolutely this.
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