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Author Topic: Change temperature to Celsius  (Read 33488 times)

0x517A5D

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Change temperature to Celsius
« on: March 15, 2009, 12:43:54 pm »

There's a recent thread where it's mentioned that DF temperatures are hard to work with.  I have found that to be true myself.

The DF temperature units are some weird mashup of Fahrenheit, Celsius, and a nonstandard rescale to make the result fit in a uint16.

I suggest switching to an int16 treated as Celsius.  Other physics-based DF units are SI; I think temperature should be too.

It would make possible the direct copying of temperatures from real-world references without a conversion step.

An int16 Celsius value would have a range of some +32500, hotter than the surface of the sun, to -32500, far, far below absolute zero.

Adamantine, for example, would be changed in the raws to melt at +8333 and vaporize at +22222.

As this affects both the raws and saved games, it should only be done when breaking save-compatibility anyway.  So now's the time.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #1 on: March 15, 2009, 12:46:54 pm »

Agreed.  There won't be another opportunity like this for awhile, but there are a lot of time constraints, so it should be now if there is enough time.
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Pilsu

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2009, 01:06:28 pm »

Before someone brings up Fahrenheit nonsense, water boiling at 212 and freezing at 32 is every bit as arbitrary as the current system and it wouldn't help clarifying it at all. There's a reason Celsius has substituted the Fahrenheit scale everywhere else

Exponent

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #3 on: March 15, 2009, 01:48:19 pm »

Before someone brings up Fahrenheit nonsense, water boiling at 212 and freezing at 32 is every bit as arbitrary as the current system and it wouldn't help clarifying it at all. There's a reason Celsius has substituted the Fahrenheit scale everywhere else

If we're interested in reducing arbitrariness, then it seems like using a uint16 in Kelvin is the best.  However, I am unsure if any temperatures in DF actually need to be below absolute zero (in which case an unsigned Kelvin value wouldn't work), and I will admit that it is still probably easier to find physical values in Celsius than Kelvin.
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Savok

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #4 on: March 15, 2009, 02:00:01 pm »

I concur. Celsius FTW!

As was stated by Toady?, magically cold objects could suck more energy out of the normal-temp environment than they could at scientifically possible temps, so he has possible temp values of sub-|0| to simulate this.
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So sayeth the Wiki Loremaster!

LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #5 on: March 15, 2009, 02:32:22 pm »

Kelvin to Celcius is actually fairly easy. 

oC + 273 = K
K - 273 = oC
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

profit

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #6 on: March 15, 2009, 02:45:48 pm »

I concur. Celsius FTW!

As was stated by Toady?, magically cold objects could suck more energy out of the normal-temp environment than they could at scientifically possible temps, so he has possible temp values of sub-|0| to simulate this.

Celsius Defiantly wins... I am kinda concerned though its temperature gradients are a bit rough....

the difference between 37 and 38 are enough to damage some organisms.. maybe we should multiply it by 10.
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Granite26

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2009, 02:53:00 pm »

I can't help but feel that celsius would be the dumbest of the options.  A uint for Kelvin would be nice (or a float, or uint for 10ths of a kelvin or whatever).  Or Farenheit, which is more familiar to most Americans.  As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale.  Plus, I'm selfish and don't like Celsius for anything except talking about water.

Appelgren

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2009, 02:58:24 pm »

Well, I'm a selfish European player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)
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Appelgren

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2009, 03:01:13 pm »

Though when I think about it more I'd actually like the game not to tell me the exact temperature but rather give me the sort of information my dwarves or adventurers would be likely to have - like "freezing cold" or "hot" or something like that.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2009, 03:06:30 pm »

I can't help but feel that celsius would be the dumbest of the options.  A uint for Kelvin would be nice (or a float, or uint for 10ths of a kelvin or whatever).  Or Farenheit, which is more familiar to most Americans.  As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale.  Plus, I'm selfish and don't like Celsius for anything except talking about water.
BAD BAD BAD!  The US's denial of the SI system to cling to the obsolete English system is one reason most of the world thinks the US is stupid.  America must abandon the English system, lest it fall into being a minor country of little importance.  And really, English is taught everwhere.  Making the game use Fahrenheit for modding would hurt more people than it would help.

@Appelgren:  We're talking about modding here and the actual values.  The game interface can continue the way it is.
« Last Edit: March 15, 2009, 03:08:10 pm by LegoLord »
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Pilsu

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2009, 03:58:34 pm »

As the game is in English, there's more potential players familiar with that scale.

That's a logical fallacy. Whether we speak the language has nothing to do with whether the rest of the world has even cursory familiarity with the archaic system. Only you and a few other small backwards nations still cling to it, even the Brits have adopted Celsius for common use


If we're interested in reducing arbitrariness, then it seems like using a uint16 in Kelvin is the best.

I do not see the logic in that. Water freezing at 237.15 and boiling at 337.15 does not lend itself to modding any more than the current system does

Theoretical absolute zero is not very useful for modding creatures

Kanil

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2009, 04:27:14 pm »

How about we stop being so defensive about something so pointless and just ask that Toady comes up with a more sensical system of temperature than the one currently in use?
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Yah, it sounds like minecraft with content, you have obviously missed the point, people dont like content, they like different coloured blocks.
Seems to work fine with my copy. As soon as I loaded the human caravan came by and the world burst into fire.

Silverionmox

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2009, 04:30:41 pm »

Though when I think about it more I'd actually like the game not to tell me the exact temperature but rather give me the sort of information my dwarves or adventurers would be likely to have - like "freezing cold" or "hot" or something like that.
That's what it will do anyway. The question is about the unit used in the raws. Celsius and Fahrenheit are both arbitrary and annoying to convert to for their respective users, but at least Celsius has the virture of offering an easy to remember point of reference (freezing and boiling water) in addition to be readily convertable to Kelvin, if need be.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2009, 04:31:20 pm »

OR since Celsius is most common, just go with that.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember
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