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Author Topic: Change temperature to Celsius  (Read 32946 times)

Random832

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #75 on: March 18, 2009, 07:36:21 am »

Fair enough. But it still doesn't address dealing with multiple units across mods

Eh? One mod uses [MELTING_POINT:1999F] another uses [MELTING_POINT:1093C], these both translate to an in-game value of 11967; what possible consequences would this have?
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Granite26

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #76 on: March 18, 2009, 08:43:51 am »

Well, I'm a selfish European player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)
Well, I'm a selfish Canadian player that would really prefer Celsius. ;)

A world standard is the best (read:only valid) argument that's been made so far.

Honestly, I can envision the game where the materials raws are all in C (physical properties lists are easier to find in C), the creatures HomeoTherms and natural temps are all in F(easier for the American dev to use), the game uses a K derivitive to store values, and reports the current outside temperature in F (or C if you flip that bit.)

RAM

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #77 on: March 18, 2009, 09:56:55 am »

A uniform standard would be the best I think.


online conversion of all kinds of units

I had a look at this and it doesn't seem to convert my own imaginary units(Hey, there is nothing wrong with imagining units...)...

Converting at all would probably invalidate all previous data files, and possibly saved games/maps too, if it was me I wouldn't want the risk unless it was tacked onto an already major update. if it was changed then there are two options, use a familiar measurment, or use a D.F. measurement. As for the familiar ones, Fahrenheit is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it, Celsius is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it and those who want to manipulate water, and Kelvin is only advantageous to those who don't want negatives, or want to deal with 0 Kelvin.

A system developed specifically for dwarf fortress could be very useful, it is a fictional environment which can have it's own laws. The melting point of magma could be lower then the melting point of water, water could be a liquid when cold, then as heat is applied it could turn into a gas, and then a solid, and all of this could occur at whatever arbitrary temperature is chosen. The more that Dwarf Fortress differs from familiar conditions the greater the extent to which a familiar temperature scale will be misleading.

So What are the options:
Fahrenheit: Good if you are familiar with it, and it seems that Toady is, and Toady has earned the right to use whatever system Toady wants...
Celsius: Well, it seems to be popular amongst humans, and water probably has the greatest combination of temperature-sensitivity and relevance to the game...
Kelvin: With magical heat sinks the whole thing about not worrying about negatives is gone, so unless some significance is implemented for absolute zero, it isn't really all that appetising.
Pick an arbitrary temperature as 0 and use the same units as Fahrenheit: Useful if you are familiar with Fahrenheit and like some element of the game as an anchor. But changing the 0 point messes up all the familiar values...
The same seems true when applied to Celsius and Kelvin.
Picking 2 significant temperatures within D.F. and picking arbitrary numbers to represent them, then plotting a direct progression between them to develop a scale: Could take alot of getting used to, but knowing that water freezes at 0 and magma will always be at 1000 could be useful...
Pseudo Kelvin, setting 0 to the point at which getting colder stops having any significant effect, and then importing a scale: No negatives is nice, but if you can't handle negatives then you probably won't be doing much modding, and most useful values will be quite obscure...
Blue Monkey! 666 = the temperature at which the sky turns yellow with purple polka-dots, 3 = the sound of the ocean as it turns into meatloaf, the scale is generated by progressing negatively from 9, alternating between a logarithmic and exponential progression, multiplying by 12 every christmas, until it wraps around and reaches 16: This is useful if you are making an artefact, or if they are watching you, or if your -carp leather loincloth- was too heavy to wear any more...
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Random832

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #78 on: March 18, 2009, 12:13:23 pm »

A uniform standard would be the best I think.


online conversion of all kinds of units

I had a look at this and it doesn't seem to convert my own imaginary units(Hey, there is nothing wrong with imagining units...)...

The only quantity I can think of with imaginary units is reactance, which is only measured in imaginary ohms and thus needs no conversion.

Quote
Converting at all would probably invalidate all previous data files

Only if the internal representation is changed - accepting new formats in the raws would work fine.
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Grek

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #79 on: March 18, 2009, 02:23:36 pm »

Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold.  This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.
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Random832

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #80 on: March 18, 2009, 02:34:39 pm »

Voting for keeping Fahrenheit+10K internally. That scale means we don't need decimals for HOMEOTHERM values nor negative numbers if there's ever a need for supernatural cold.  This will make the game go faster, even if it is totally arbitrary.

How will it make the game go faster? Processors have both signed and unsigned integer arithmetic already, and "decimals" just means using F*10 instead of F, it doesn't mean having to go floating point.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #81 on: March 18, 2009, 03:57:28 pm »

A uniform standard would be the best I think.


online conversion of all kinds of units

I had a look at this and it doesn't seem to convert my own imaginary units(Hey, there is nothing wrong with imagining units...)...

Converting at all would probably invalidate all previous data files, and possibly saved games/maps too, if it was me I wouldn't want the risk unless it was tacked onto an already major update. if it was changed then there are two options, use a familiar measurment, or use a D.F. measurement. As for the familiar ones, Fahrenheit is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it, Celsius is only advantageous to those who are familiar with it and those who want to manipulate water, and Kelvin is only advantageous to those who don't want negatives, or want to deal with 0 Kelvin.

A system developed specifically for dwarf fortress could be very useful, it is a fictional environment which can have it's own laws. The melting point of magma could be lower then the melting point of water, water could be a liquid when cold, then as heat is applied it could turn into a gas, and then a solid, and all of this could occur at whatever arbitrary temperature is chosen. The more that Dwarf Fortress differs from familiar conditions the greater the extent to which a familiar temperature scale will be misleading.

So What are the options:
Fahrenheit: Good if you are familiar with it, and it seems that Toady is, and Toady has earned the right to use whatever system Toady wants...
Celsius: Well, it seems to be popular amongst humans, and water probably has the greatest combination of temperature-sensitivity and relevance to the game...
Kelvin: With magical heat sinks the whole thing about not worrying about negatives is gone, so unless some significance is implemented for absolute zero, it isn't really all that appetising.
Pick an arbitrary temperature as 0 and use the same units as Fahrenheit: Useful if you are familiar with Fahrenheit and like some element of the game as an anchor. But changing the 0 point messes up all the familiar values...
The same seems true when applied to Celsius and Kelvin.
Picking 2 significant temperatures within D.F. and picking arbitrary numbers to represent them, then plotting a direct progression between them to develop a scale: Could take alot of getting used to, but knowing that water freezes at 0 and magma will always be at 1000 could be useful...
Pseudo Kelvin, setting 0 to the point at which getting colder stops having any significant effect, and then importing a scale: No negatives is nice, but if you can't handle negatives then you probably won't be doing much modding, and most useful values will be quite obscure...
Blue Monkey! 666 = the temperature at which the sky turns yellow with purple polka-dots, 3 = the sound of the ocean as it turns into meatloaf, the scale is generated by progressing negatively from 9, alternating between a logarithmic and exponential progression, multiplying by 12 every christmas, until it wraps around and reaches 16: This is useful if you are making an artefact, or if they are watching you, or if your -carp leather loincloth- was too heavy to wear any more...
Just how does this simplify temperature in DF modding?  The whole point of this is to make modding easier.

Why can't the game just translate Celsius into DF?  Why can't it do that with other units like Kelvin and Skantine? (not sure if that's spelled correctly).  Why can't decimals be used in the real-world temperature scales?  What is the problem with that and why are people still arguing?
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0x517A5D

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #82 on: March 18, 2009, 07:56:28 pm »

We sure are an argumentative bunch, aren't we?

I withdraw the suggestion completely.  It's fine the way it is.

Whaddaya gonna do about that, huh?
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Duke 2.0

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #83 on: March 18, 2009, 08:04:44 pm »

We sure are an argumentative bunch, aren't we?

I withdraw the suggestion completely.  It's fine the way it is.

Whaddaya gonna do about that, huh?
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zchris13

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #84 on: March 18, 2009, 08:05:23 pm »

GREAT THING THAT WE HAVE A SAVE COMPATABILITY BREAK WITH THE NEXT UPDATE. *WINK WINK.
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Sowelu

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #85 on: March 18, 2009, 08:25:43 pm »

Yeah, reading multiple formats from the raws would totally be the dog's knees.  I am in favor.

Only issue there is that it turns a "read an int from this tag" into "read a string from this tag and convert".  NBD.
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LegoLord

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #86 on: March 18, 2009, 08:56:30 pm »

Yeah, reading multiple formats from the raws would totally be the dog's knees.  I am in favor.

Only issue there is that it turns a "read an int from this tag" into "read a string from this tag and convert".  NBD.
Well, that only happens when opening DF.  The data/objects folder (which holds the creature data the game uses) would have the internal values.  Basically, it's the same as any old tag, just taking it up a level.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

sweitx

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #87 on: March 19, 2009, 12:03:17 am »

I say we just let Toady decide to use whatever scale he wishes in the game.  Other then familiarity, there is no advantage in using one system over another.  Although I like the ideal of a temperature scale called Urist.

0 Urist - the temperature at which the mixture of 4 dwarven alcohol in equal amount freezes.
100 Urist - the temperature at which the same mixture above boils.

Dwarves will like any temperature between 0~100, said dwarves will have alcohol.
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RAM

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #88 on: March 19, 2009, 02:08:34 am »

I say we just let Toady decide to use whatever scale he wishes in the game.  Other then familiarity, there is no advantage in using one system over another.  Although I like the ideal of a temperature scale called Urist.

0 Urist - the temperature at which the mixture of 4 dwarven alcohol in equal amount freezes.
100 Urist - the temperature at which the same mixture above boils.

Dwarves will like any temperature between 0~100, said dwarves will have alcohol.

I like it!
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Vote (1) for the Urist scale!
I shall be eternally happy. I shall be able to construct elf hunting giant mecha. Which can pour magma.
Urist has been forced to use a friend as fertilizer lately.
Read the First Post!

Pilsu

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Re: Change temperature to Celsius
« Reply #89 on: March 19, 2009, 12:16:10 pm »

I'm pretty sure it wouldn't help performance if the game had to constantly convert Fahrenheit, Celsius and Kelvin into whatever just because you were too lazy to punch in the homeotherm in Kelvin
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