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Author Topic: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons  (Read 6607 times)

Yanlin

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #30 on: April 11, 2009, 03:58:34 pm »

Fact: The only reason self defense against pistols work is because the guy holding the pistol didn't shoot yet.

Catch: You don't know if he intends to shoot or not.
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beorn080

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #31 on: April 11, 2009, 10:46:34 pm »

Who the hell is teaching your self defense class?  The first rule of gun safety is that when a gun is pointed at a person, you have an extremely dangerous situation.  No exceptions!
And what part of being in an extremely dangerous situation prevents one from taking control of that situation? I was taught by a pair of retired marines and a krav maga instructor. Yes, its dangerous, but no less dangerous then any other action you might take, and potentially less dangerous if the person isn't expecting resistance.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2009, 01:26:59 am »

Who the hell is teaching your self defense class?  The first rule of gun safety is that when a gun is pointed at a person, you have an extremely dangerous situation.  No exceptions!
And what part of being in an extremely dangerous situation prevents one from taking control of that situation? I was taught by a pair of retired marines and a krav maga instructor. Yes, its dangerous, but no less dangerous then any other action you might take, and potentially less dangerous if the person isn't expecting resistance.

No less dangerous than any other action you might take? In a kidnapping situation, you may be right. Statistically, if you allow yourself to be kidnapped for any other reason than ransom, you're virtually guaranteed to be raped and/or murdered anyway. Cooperating with a kidnapping is extremely dangerous. But if we were talking about anything less than kidnapping -- say a robbery, with a gun to your face -- this would be one hundred percent wrong. I stress this not out of a desire to win an argument, but because we are discussing a self defense issue with life and death consequences, and many people have died because they did something stupid in a situation like this.

The fact that you are being merely threatened with deadly force indicates that the person threatening you is attempting to avoid the need to use it. It does not mean that they are not prepared to use it. In fact, it is extremely likely that if they are carrying a loaded gun, they are fully prepared to kill you if they have to. In this situation, the most dangerous thing you can do is to make them decide to pull the trigger. The moment they have decided to pull the trigger, you are infinitely less safe. It doesn't matter how good you think you are at fighting -- even with a gun in your face, you were not in a fight before you decided to start one.

Your instructors are all fighting specialists, which is only great so far as learning to protect yourself from violent assault is concerned, a distinction they should be actively emphasizing. But self defense and combat are very different beasts, and learning to fight only helps you in the rare nightmare situation where all other measures of self defense fail and someone is actually trying to hurt you -- and knowing how to fight can get you killed in anything less, if you do something stupid because of it. Real self defense is not getting into a fight in the first place. And that is not just high school karate teacher gum flapping.

Self defense is not about winning -- it's about surviving. Intentionally escalating the situation to the point where they now intend to shoot you, just because you think you're in a situation that is "relatively easy to defeat", is not self defense; it is the naive mindset of someone who is prepared to literally commit suicide because they refuse to believe that some asshole got the better of them and is going to get away with it.

If someone is pointing a gun at you, and demands your wallet, you don't react by deciding that you learned about this in class and you can get control of the situation. You just give him your wallet. If they demand you lay down on the floor and let them steal your TV, you lay down on the floor and let them steal your TV. Nothing you own, not even your pride, is worth even the slightest risk of getting killed yourself.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2009, 10:53:40 am »

Jonathan: In LCS, when I points a gun at a jaintor and scream, "We need a slogan!", most Conservatives laugh at my bluff and tries to stab me anyway. The result just lead to a Conservative spray of blood on the ground, but the fact is, if you want this game to be realistic, you have to fix that.

Quote
No less dangerous than any other action you might take? In a kidnapping situation, you may be right. Statistically, if you allow yourself to be kidnapped for any other reason than ransom, you're virtually guaranteed to be raped and/or murdered anyway. Cooperating with a kidnapping is extremely dangerous.

If this is implemented within LCS, it would make date-kidnapping much harder.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #34 on: April 12, 2009, 11:35:12 am »

Jonathan: In LCS, when I points a gun at a jaintor and scream, "We need a slogan!", most Conservatives laugh at my bluff and tries to stab me anyway. The result just lead to a Conservative spray of blood on the ground, but the fact is, if you want this game to be realistic, you have to fix that.

Are you referring to threatening a hostage, or trying to intimidate a group?
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Servant Corps

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #35 on: April 12, 2009, 12:14:07 pm »

Intimidating a group. When I take a hostage with a gun, they usually cooperate, but not always.
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Ruttiger

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #36 on: April 12, 2009, 12:32:45 pm »

I agree that improvised weapons should be taken out, or at least severely changed (the weapons are pretty damn near useless), but at the same time I like the idea of having a combat option that allows someone on your team to grab a quick one shot item like a chair or beer bottle and then hit someone with it next round.  It wouldn't even be that useful since you'd get one attack to the enemies two, but it'd be fun to go into the gentlemens club with six troublemakers and beat some conservatives senseless with liquor bottles and chairs.

Consequently, when you take out improvised weapons, are you going to be changing all the improvised weapons back to other weapon skills?

Will I be able to art people to death again with spraypaint?  I know it didn't make sense, but damn it was fun.   
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beorn080

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #37 on: April 12, 2009, 05:05:40 pm »

Snipped.
I thought we were talking about being kidnapped. Yes, if your being robbed or mugged or carjacked, the best defense is to go along with it and get rid of the attacker as safely as possible. If your being kidnapped or actively raped or assaulted, the best defense is to FIGHT BACK.

The reason I said a gun is less dangerous then a knife is because if you are being actively assaulted, a knife is always dangerous, but a gun is only dangerous if the person decides to use it. If your being raped with a gun to your head, the person has to decide to pull the trigger in order for it to kill you. On the other hand, if he holds a knife to your throat, simply moving at all can cause serious damage. The knife is a passive threat against moving while the gun requires an act of will to use and simple movement isn't going to cause it to kill you.

I apologize for any confusion. I hadn't realized we went from specifically kidnapping to general self defense.
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Yanlin

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #38 on: April 12, 2009, 05:19:13 pm »

You're being a bit unfair...

"A knife is more dangerous than a gun. Only if you do not use the gun."
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Rezan

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #39 on: April 13, 2009, 04:49:14 am »

A gun also has what's called a firing-line. At close range, if you're not in that line's path, you are out of danger. With a knife, you never know what's going to happen, and if you think a knife can't kill you as fast as a bullet from a gun, you're sorely mistaken. A good knife can deliver one cut and have the target bleed out in less than five minutes (for instance if a deep cut to the arm is delivered).

In any case I agree that a person who is being kidnapped, raped or similar would be better off fighting back. Fighting over material possessions? Good luck with that, don't let the knife stab you on the way out.
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Yanlin

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #40 on: April 13, 2009, 08:44:43 am »

I have news for you. Aiming a gun is trivial. I can also shoot you 3 times in the span of one second. Bang. That's enough to send you staggering backards, only to die from bleeding later.

Like I said. Anyone who knows how to use a gun, knows not to get in range where the other guy can grab it. You're being SERIOUSLY unfair by putting the knife in the optimal position and the gun in a horrible position.
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Ciarog

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #41 on: April 13, 2009, 09:30:49 am »

A gun also has what's called a firing-line. At close range, if you're not in that line's path, you are out of danger. With a knife, you never know what's going to happen, and if you think a knife can't kill you as fast as a bullet from a gun, you're sorely mistaken. A good knife can deliver one cut and have the target bleed out in less than five minutes (for instance if a deep cut to the arm is delivered).
Automatic fire notwithstanding, if you expect to be in a situation with someone grabbing ahold of your barrel, just stick a bayonet on the end of it as I suggested earlier. Even the stubby little MP-5 can mount one, though to my knowelege only the Pakistanis actually issue them. Any smaller ranged weapon could just be used to bludgeon someone to death if shooting them doesn't work.
Indeed, Civil War cavalrymen became quite proficient in using their revolvers as clubs during the tight melee fighting, when ammunition was exhaust or when there was a chance of colateral damage from gunfire. These same cavalrymen would often eskew sabers in close combat because they felt that the ability to shoot and club people was more effective than being only capable of slabbing and slashing.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2009, 09:44:00 am by Ciarog »
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mainiac

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #42 on: April 13, 2009, 11:41:38 am »

Most kidnappings are over material possessions.  And in every kidnapping it's in the hostage takers interest that no one gets hurt so long as there's no fighting.  Guns are dangerous.  The only thing to result in more accidental deaths in this country is cars, which are used a lot more.  Starting a fight with a gun opens up so many possibilities for life threatening injury...

In a military organization overseas, kidnapping usually means death.  The slim chance of successful resistance is one of the best chances a trained soldier has.  Don't take the military perspective to a completely different situation.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #43 on: April 13, 2009, 11:47:36 am »

mainiac: The problem is that all the kidnappings the LCS does is with the sole purpose of brainwashing them to join up with the LCS. The LCS isn't interested in money, since they already have a list of Liberal donors and suitcases full of stolen goods that can be pawned off. They want slaves.

I am sure word of this would get around, so there should be more resistance against LCS' kidnappings.
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Rezan

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Re: Suggestion: Random Improvised Weapons
« Reply #44 on: April 13, 2009, 12:32:10 pm »

@Yanlin: Aiming a gun is not trivial at close range, as you would know had you ever used one. At around 2 metres, it would be a piece of cake to disarm a person holding a handgun. The further back (up to the point where you cannot accurately target) you are, the more effective a handgun is.

In general when holding a hostage (or, uh, I would presume, being a rapist), you tend to be close to your target.

The only real way to have a gun be useful in close quarters (beyond a brawl, where you can use it to strike someone) is if you point it directly at someone's temple, preferably in combination with a grip.

@Ciarog: Bayonets and rifles can be useful, but you tend to be short-circuited when someone attacks you while you are in "rifle mode". Only experienced users of rifles (such as soldiers who've seen combat) can be expected to handle a rifle that well. Automatics... Well, that makes any situation far more dangerous immediately.
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