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[mainiac]

I am sure word of this would get around, so there should be more resistance against LCS' kidnappings.

Yes, because the first thing people do when someone shoves a gun in their face is take the time to rationally consider the motivations of their assailant based on sensationalist news and gossip.

[Rezan]

^ this.

[Ciarog]

@Ciarog: Bayonets and rifles can be useful, but you tend to be short-circuited when someone attacks you while you are in "rifle mode". Only experienced users of rifles (such as soldiers who've seen combat) can be expected to handle a rifle that well. Automatics... Well, that makes any situation far more dangerous immediately.

Granted. Most green insurgents probably wouldn't know how to properly employ a rifle when they have to do something other than shoot it, even if they were familiar with guns in their civilian life. Still, anyone who's going to grapple an insurgent who at the risk of being shot and stabbed is either asking to die or so ballsy that no deterent in the world could turn them away.

Also, consider this:
"In late 1943, the 1st Marine Division received some M1-1 flamethrowers just prior to the New Britain campaign. The legendary Marine, LtCol Lewis "Chesty" Puller, observed a demonstration of the new flamethrower. Afterward, he asked, "Where do you put the bayonet on the damned thing?""
http://www.ww2gyrene.org/weapons_flamethrower.htm

[Yanlin]

@Yanlin: Aiming a gun is not trivial at close range, as you would know had you ever used one. At around 2 metres, it would be a piece of cake to disarm a person holding a handgun. The further back (up to the point where you cannot accurately target) you are, the more effective a handgun is.

In general when holding a hostage (or, uh, I would presume, being a rapist), you tend to be close to your target.

The only real way to have a gun be useful in close quarters (beyond a brawl, where you can use it to strike someone) is if you point it directly at someone's temple, preferably in combination with a grip.

@Ciarog: Bayonets and rifles can be useful, but you tend to be short-circuited when someone attacks you while you are in "rifle mode". Only experienced users of rifles (such as soldiers who've seen combat) can be expected to handle a rifle that well. Automatics... Well, that makes any situation far more dangerous immediately.

Maybe you could... Heavens forbid... SHOOT THE GUN IF HE MOVES?! Again. Aiming, even at 2 meters range, is trivial. You have at least 5 shots and you only need to hit with 1 or 2 to stagger them enough to escape yourself. Besides, you have legs. RUN YOURSELF.

I talked with people who are trained with guns. Security guards, ex military, etc. They support my claims.

[Rezan]

I guess you don't know much about biology, firearms or psychology then? First of all, the body has a specific reaction time in any given situation. The average is between 200 and 400 ms. That's a lot of time in close quarters. Then we have firearms. Firearms are most effective at a distance because they take longer time to aim at close range (try holding a book out, then suddenly jerking it towards someone - a loaded gun can weigh approximately that of a hardcover book). Then there's psychology. If someone hits you, your instinct is not immediately to shoot them, but to think of the pain. That's not something you can stop without years of experience.

If you haven't done it tons of times before (as in trained for it), a person with a handgun who doesn't intend to use it is not that hard to disarm.

If we're talking someone who intends to shoot you (like, imagine someone popping up at two metres to shoot you and only that), he will. There is no way to stop a person who intends to shoot you if he has the element of surprise. Then it's over.

The question however is whether the person being aimed at can maintain composure, and whether they have any training in hand to hand combat. If they maintain composure and have training, it's not that big of a deal to disarm a handgun.

Now, a knife... Good luck disarming someone with a knife.

I don't for a second believe you've talked to various types of people and they all agree with you on this subject. Most self-defence teachers (for instance some of your very own Israeli commandos) teach methods in how to easily disarm a person holding a handgun. I think you're just making it up to back up your claim.

[Cosmonot]

I don't for a second believe you've talked to various types of people and they all agree with you on this subject. Most self-defence teachers (for instance some of your very own Israeli commandos) teach methods in how to easily disarm a person holding a handgun. I think you're just making it up to back up your claim.

Note that he said he spoke with security guards and ex-military rather than self-defense teachers; it's quite possible that a person who might need to use these skills would have a different opinion of them than someone who usually only needs to teach them to other people. In any case it's very poor form to say "I think you're a liar" when your own argument relies heavily on unsupported anecdotes.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Snipped.

I thought we were talking about being kidnapped. [...]

I apologize for any confusion. I hadn't realized we went from specifically kidnapping to general self defense.

This thread has moved so fast, I didn't get a chance to respond to this.

We were talking about being kidnapped, as of the post prior to mine. I broadened it to general self defense in the snipped reply. I did not want there to be ambiguity or question on the matter.

[beorn080]

I don't for a second believe you've talked to various types of people and they all agree with you on this subject. Most self-defence teachers (for instance some of your very own Israeli commandos) teach methods in how to easily disarm a person holding a handgun. I think you're just making it up to back up your claim.

Note that he said he spoke with security guards and ex-military rather than self-defense teachers; it's quite possible that a person who might need to use these skills would have a different opinion of them than someone who usually only needs to teach them to other people. In any case it's very poor form to say "I think you're a liar" when your own argument relies heavily on unsupported anecdotes.

And note that he said that Israeli commando's teach self defense. I don't know about what you think, but on their own with no support and basic equipment, they're probably better then US Marines. Granted, the marines are far superior with their equipment and support and ability to use it.

@Jonathan: Thanks for the clarification.

[Neonivek]

Good luck disarming someone with a knife

Break or sprain their hand. After which it becomes physically impossible to hold on.

A lot of disarming techniques actually rely on doing a lot of physical damage to your opponent or even downright killing them. (Boxing has quite a few "Killing blows")

[Cosmonot]

Good luck disarming someone with a knife

Break or sprain their hand. After which it becomes physically impossible to hold on.

A lot of disarming techniques actually rely on doing a lot of physical damage to your opponent or even downright killing them. (Boxing has quite a few "Killing blows")

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to disarm or kill your opponent while boxing.

[Rezan]

Nonsense! What if your opponent has guns for hands?

[Yanlin]

Then you disARM him!

[Ciarog]

Good luck disarming someone with a knife

Break or sprain their hand. After which it becomes physically impossible to hold on.

A lot of disarming techniques actually rely on doing a lot of physical damage to your opponent or even downright killing them. (Boxing has quite a few "Killing blows")

I'm pretty sure you're not supposed to disarm or kill your opponent while boxing.

Boxing against another sportsman ain't quite the same as boxing against someone who may or may not wish to seriously hurt you. In a sport you can have general idea of what you and your adversary intend to do to each other, and what you're not allowed to do. In an actual fight neither of you have any idea what the other one wants (you're probably not facing down a cannibal, but who knows?), and any inhibitions against how much pain y'all can deal out, if they exist at all, are going to be very vague and very weak.

[mainiac]

Now, a knife... Good luck disarming someone with a knife.

Grab their wrist.   

[Yanlin]

Now, a knife... Good luck disarming someone with a knife.

Grab their wrist.  

If only it were that easy.

Ciaorg, Krav Maga. The best self defense technique known to man. Simply because the basis of it is not giving a single quarter. Not even ONE. Somebody attacked you? Treat it like he wants to kill you. That way, you always survive.