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Author Topic: Buried alive and thoughts  (Read 5347 times)

Hyndis

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Buried alive and thoughts
« on: March 23, 2009, 04:05:52 pm »

I know we've had a lot of threads about digging enemies, but one thing I haven't seen mentioned is requiring that the fort always have a path to it. Even outside of siege situations this could be somewhat important.

A dwarf that is trapped underground with no path to the surface is essentially buried alive. Even if he has a masterwork adamantine barrel of amontillado, he's still buried alive.

This should produce some seriously unhappy thoughts, and they should stack, such that if too many attempts to reach the surface have failed the dwarf will go insane.

Perhaps every time the dwarf goes on break he checks to see if he can escape the fort. He doesn't actually have to go outside, he just checks to see if he can reach the edge of the map. If he cannot, he gets a severe negative thought about being trapped, cut off from the outside world, or so forth. This would be enough to make a content dwarf be unhappy.

Then the next time he goes on break, he checks if he can escape. If that check also fails, he gets another equally serious unhappy thought. I'm thinking after 3 of these, the average dwarf will go insane. Maybe 4 failed checks for ecstatic dwarves.

This would mean that a siege that forces the player to bottle up their fort and seal it off from the ouside world cannot simply be ignored forever. A siege will stick around for a very long time, just camping outside. If the player attempts to wait out the siege until they get bored and leave, they could very well have a bunch of dwarves that go insane from being sealed inside the fortress.

Also the reason for checking for a path to the edge of the map every time the dwarf goes on break is both to save CPU cycles, and to give the player a little time to reopen the fort, so if you need to block off a siege until your military can grab their gear, its okay, but you can't wait for years underground.

Historically sieges often lasted for years, but the conditions for the besieged were utterly horrendous. Disease and starvation were common, eventually weakening the defenders so much that they simply surrendered. Assaults against castle or city walls were quite rare. However, as a single plump helmet farm can feel a 200 dwarf fort just fine for all eternity, because there is no disease in game, and because its trivial to feed them booze or pipe water underground, there is no reason for dwarves to come up for air.

There should be! Air shafts would be an interesting requirement, as would allowing creatures to climb down the air shafts, but thats a helluva lot more complicated than just adding in a new negative thought.

This would sort of simulate the general nastiness of being under sieges for months or years, and if the siege is not lifted somehow or other, the fortress will eventually be driven completely insane, ending in an orgy of murderous trantrums and dorfs flinging themselves into the chasm.


Also, using this you could rig up an insane asylum. Purposefully trap dwarves in rooms until they go insane, then build an arena and unleash them on each other or against caged opponents.  ;D

I'm pretty sure the most common visitor to the arenas would be nobles.  :D
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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2009, 04:49:29 pm »

I like the elegance of it, though Dwarves, of course, may have more tolerance to being locked underground than humans would.

Other than that, this is a sterling suggestion!
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ThtblovesDF

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2009, 04:54:11 pm »

Sieges overall could be a little more complex, like;

-Sieging army eats/drinks from its stock (and nature) and leaves once´s out of stuff
-Emotions (Bombing them with dead stuff would do something for example)
-Building of siege items.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2009, 05:21:06 pm »

---As an aside, I think it's high time that somebody, somewhere, mods in an Amontillado reaction.

For the love of Armok, Montresor!
(Yes, Uristnado, for the love of Armok.)
« Last Edit: March 23, 2009, 07:07:27 pm by SirHoneyBadger »
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Onlyhestands

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2009, 05:52:39 pm »

I really don't think that Dwarves would mine being trapped underground if the fort was nice enough.
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Fossaman

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2009, 06:03:30 pm »

I'm rather against this. I'd like my dwarves to be permanent denizens of the underworld: Shunning the evil daystar and living completely underground. If a dwarf has everything he needs to survive in his nice safe mind/cave/fortress, why would he want to leave?
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AncientEnemy

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2009, 06:29:21 pm »

I'm against this. I think dwarves should feel quite at home underground, and be happy to stay there are long as their various needs are being met.

Making a dwarf freak out when he can't get outside (especially just -because- he can't go outside, even if he doesn't need to go there) doesn't make much sense as a way to do it.

Now sieges definitely need to be harder, but I don't think this is the way to go about doing it. The problem as you said is that you can keep a fort completely enclosed and still have all the resources you need to survive. Making -that- harder to accomplish is what aught to be changed, and I believe is already in the works.

I agree about the air shafts, I believe one of the eternal suggestions says something about them.

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thats a helluva lot more complicated than just adding in a new negative thought.

while adding the thought my be a bandaid solution to the current state of sieges being incredibly weak, there are (IMO) better and more satisfying ways to go about it.

LegoLord

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2009, 06:40:09 pm »

I like the idea, but there should be various circumstances.

It should be a medium unhappy thought, and it should be stuff like "was unable to communicate with family members abroad," "was unable to order xliked item" - not just "was stir crazy lately."

Basically, it should be implemented so that if you seal up a fort full of ecstatic dwarves, they will become merely happy.  After a few generations, the ecstatic number would rise again (of course that would take years).
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Vattic

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2009, 06:45:49 pm »

I mostly support this, I can see why a Dwarf would dislike not being able to leave your fort even if everything they need is supplied. "Has felt trapped lately." or similar.

Then again I like the idea that being under seige generates an unhappy thought if it goes on too long and even having the thoughts get worse. I cant imagine Dwarves would enjoy having an enemy at the gate.
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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2009, 06:59:02 pm »

Perhaps it should be tied to emigration; if a dwarf is unhappy and might emigrate, but can't get out, they'll get a small bad thought.

But this should more be in place for later and in a more general sense.

Consider dwarves getting negative thoughts because they're trapped overground, or humans that are sieged into a Man Fortress.
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Zangi

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2009, 07:28:48 pm »

[CAVE_ADAPTION] = Trump this

Well, unless they like working outside...  But they will adapt, quickly.

As for other races who don't have this...  >.>  Going stir crazy is the way to go.

(Does Toady plan on allowing multi-racial forts later on?)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Actually, certain personalities should affect this too, like adventure and excitement seeking... sitting around and getting bored to death = melanchony
and/or
The extra social butterflies who also like 'contact' with the outside world.

Would work the other way too for those not adaptable to caves...
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LegoLord

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2009, 07:46:55 pm »

[CAVE_ADAPTION] = Trump this
Not really.  Can you imagine being a guard, locked in a fort, with little more than the occasional beating to keep things interesting?  Dwarves aren't automatically cave adapt.  If one gets enough of the outside world, they might like it.
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Warlord255

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2009, 08:01:17 pm »

---As an aside, I think it's high time that somebody, somewhere, mods in an Amontillado reaction.

For the love of Armok, Montresor!
(Yes, Uristnado, for the love of Armok.)


Someone's been reading Poe, I see. :P
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2009, 08:04:15 pm »

Yes, and for quite a number of years at that.

'The Casque of Amontillado' has always been my personal favorite of good Mr Poe.

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winner

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Re: Buried alive and thoughts
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2009, 08:20:08 pm »

If it was a binary situation, where being cave adapted made it so you couldn't go stir crazy. Then cave adaption would have more interest and strategy to it.
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