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Author Topic: Hard Mod  (Read 2523 times)

MrGimp

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Hard Mod
« on: March 26, 2009, 02:39:48 pm »

The purpose behind this potential mod is that the game needs to be harder for veteran players who want to occassionally get slaughtered.

I havent really started work on it, just jotting down ideas....but my Urist fort in the community games section had some fire spell casting elves modded in.  It actually worked out really well and made the elves somewhat cool (in a way).

I was thinking of upping them a bit more, maybe giving them mythril weapons and armor that would be just one step down from adamantine? 

I also wanted some amphibious kobolds to sneak through my moat and water tunnels...but the skulking bit causes them to just freeze in the moat like a deer in headlights when they get spotted...so I was thinking of making lizardmen into an amphibious entity that isnt skulking.  Then well have fire elves, and water breathing lizardmen.

Add in some flying birdmen and now the fortress is getting attacked from all angles.  Im even thinking of adding Barbarians (unintelligent humans) and giving them steel.  That way you have two foes that can stand up against you face to face (Dark Elves with Mythril and magic, and Steel wielding humans) as well as two races that have a unique angle of attack (air or water).

Plus goblins will still be there as well.  And kobold thieves.  What do you guys think? 
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diriel

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2009, 03:20:42 pm »

Make the barbarians use Obsidian. Same damage code, but fits into their level of "tech" much better,  and considerably more in character. As for armor for them, perhaps a somewhat modded bronze? Or dam block? Cool idea adding in barbarians.
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MrGimp

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2009, 04:07:23 pm »

Yeah steel for barbarians is a bit high tech...but I want a challenge!  I never liked how in vanilla DF the dwarves were always the strongest warriors once your fort was up and going.  I want steel to be more common among non-dwarves.

Ok, Ive added a dark elf and barbarian entity just now.  Im gonna run the world and see if it works as intended so far (this is my first attempt at adding entities).
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Rysith

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2009, 04:56:22 pm »

From my experience making the Orcs:

You aren't really going to be able to make opponents that can stand up to dwarves in toe-to-toe combat, since the invaders will always be unskilled relative to even vaguely trained dwarves. I found adding [NOPAIN] helped a lot, and probably adding [NOBLEED], [NONAUSIA], [NOSTUN],and so on would also help, since they can take hits and keep fighting. [trAPAVOID] is practically required, and lowering speed to elvish levels helps too, to simulate a few extra levels of agility than they actually have. DAMBLOCK and natural attacks can also be used to buff up wrestlers a bit, which are normally just cannon fodder. Adding in large/competent/buildingdestroying mounts can work well too, since they will effectively double the number of combatants.

Making crossbow bolts do less damage, and not be piercing, is probably a good idea. Multiple entities of the same type, active in different seasons, will increase the number of sieges/ambushes/etc. that you get, which is also good. Autumn active entities need special care, since they can appear with the caravan. Fast siegers or ambushers can easily take out the dwarven caravan or liason, which makes everything more difficult (especially with mandates for imported things).

On entity design, I'm currently working on a flying skulking race, the hope being that flying itemthieves will be able to grab a lot of stuff that would otherwise be difficult, and flying ranged ambushes would be a pain to deal with. It might be a path to look into, as an alternative/addition to the lizardmen. Stealth, in general, is good, since it normally results in at least one kill per ambush, and if they aren't as weak as kobolds it can result in kills from thieves too.

Another thing to carefully consider is what of the stuff that you give to your opponents the dwarves can use. Mythril, for example, could be a problem if the dwarves can melt it down and use it against the next attack. I'd suggest buffed iron weapons/armor (or even massively-buffed copper weapons and armor) so that they provide damage/protection at the levels you want but don't melt well.

Add more, and more deadly wild animals. They show up randomly and constantly, and if most of the wildlife on the map wants to kill and eat your dwarves, life becomes harder. Look at Nist Akath in the early years, or Blindquest now: a few aggressive animals can seal off a fort early and prevent migration. Give Elephants back their aggressiveness, make swarms of giant army ants, add in wandering non-megabeast demons, make above-ground giant cave spiders, or just buff the animals that we already have, like wolves and ogres.

On a non-opponent front, consider increasing the growtimes of plants to make starvation and thirst more of a concern, as well as limiting the growing seasons. Adding many rare materials will also increase the likelihood of having a noble who will mandate a material that can only be imported, increasing reliance on the outside world. Giving dwarves the [SLOWLEARNER] tag, and increasing their speed (to 1200 or so) can also help prevent the rapid development of super-legendary dwarves. For extra fun, remove [liKES_FIGHTING] so that the effects of combat aren't buffered by happy thoughts.

And, at some level, the player will need to limit themselves as well. A fortress can just seal itself up (barring mandates + tantrum spiral), and spike trap alternators aren't that hard to set up (and they kill everything).
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Idiom

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2009, 05:12:02 pm »

Set the 'event trigger' tag in goblins to 1 for all 3 instances of the tag. The goblins will invade usually within 1 to 2 sleep cycles instead of 1 to 2 years. Give them a small (IE 1 to 5) instance of the [DAM_BLOCK] tag.
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Org

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2009, 05:15:25 pm »

I made Lizardmen like siegers. They are crazy hard. Even have mounts.

I made an adventurer, with a crossbow, and coudnt hurt a stoneworker Scaleman. Then, he punched me twice, and I died..\
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MrGimp

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2009, 05:20:16 pm »

Damn Rysith I like your ideas!  haha

Yeah I was gonna have a flier race of birdmen....but I didnt even think of flying skulkers!  haha  I tried the amphibious skulkers, but unless you put ramps along the entirety of any pool or moat, they just freeze up the minute you spot them, even if you remove [FLEEQUICK].  Thats why Im thinking of adding lizardmen as amphibious generic siegers/ambushers.  There would still be the problem of getting into and out of rampless waterways....it seems like Id have to add [FLIER] to the lizardmen too.  Flying fish men anyone?

I like the idea of pairing [FLIER] with [AMBUSHER] you mentioned.  Thats fucking awesome.  The first time you realize they are in the fort may well be when theyve already landed on one of the towers and walked down into the dwarf-filled depths.
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MrGimp

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2009, 05:23:46 pm »

Oh and as for mythril, yeah I thought about dwarves getting hold of it...but other than the weapons (and they cant use the bows) they wouldnt be able to wear narrow elf shit.  So dwarves would have to melt the mythril first, and get less of it.  After enough sieges they could end up outfitted with mythril, but thats a lot of work for a little reward.  If I add in mythril, it will be weaker than adamantine, basically just enchanted steel or something.  So it shouldnt be too unbalancing.
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Vucar Fikodastesh

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2009, 05:48:55 pm »

If mithril is stronger that steel you will have to make the metal [DEEP] or the dwarves will make all of their weapons and armor from it.

You can't give other races mithril without giving it to the dwarves unless you remove [METAL_PREF] from the dwarves.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2009, 05:51:04 pm by Vucar Fikodastesh »
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MrGimp

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2009, 05:51:56 pm »

If mithril is stronger that steel you will have to make the metal [DEEP] or the dwarves will make all of their weapons and armor from it.

You can't give other races mithril without giving it to the dwarves unless you remove [METAL_PREF].

Doh....good point.  And if I make it deep, the elves wont have it will they?

Argh!!!  Ill just give the elves steel then.  Its simpler that way anyways.
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Rysith

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2009, 06:16:25 pm »

If mithril is stronger that steel you will have to make the metal [DEEP] or the dwarves will make all of their weapons and armor from it.

You can't give other races mithril without giving it to the dwarves unless you remove [METAL_PREF].

Doh....good point.  And if I make it deep, the elves wont have it will they?

Argh!!!  Ill just give the elves steel then.  Its simpler that way anyways.

Why bother? Make "Elven armor" with double (or triple!) the protection of normal armor. The elves will make it out of wood, with 50% protection, but then since it's twice as "good" as normal armor it comes out equivalent to iron in protection (while probably being lighter, thus allowing them to run faster. Same thing can be done with weapons and damage, and the dwarves can't even melt the wood down for metal.

That also lets you control the quality of the equipment that each race brings, since you can control which items each entity can forge. So, if only elves can make elven armor, you don't have to worry about dwarves showing up with superarmor (and, as you mentioned earlier, the narrow/large will prevent the dwarves from using it themselves).

Melting metal really is a problem, though. On average, you need three enemies worth of metal to fully outfit a single dwarf, which means one siege and your champions have metal armor, two or three and everyone does. With magma, melting it down and reforging isn't that big a deal at all, and if it's better than steel people will think of the reward as worth it.
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MrGimp

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2009, 07:28:57 pm »

Yeah I like your ideas as far as elf armor.  Thats sounds like the way to go.  Id have to make their weapons a little bit less than steel though, so that the wooden elf weapons dont become the better choice to arm your soldiers with.  Or maybe I could just give them elven arrows that had higher damage, and make all Dark Elves either bowmen or wrestlers (magi?).  Their fireball attack is more powerful than their weapons, so it makes more sense to have them less weapon dependant I guess.

As for my lizardmen/birdmen idea....scratch that.  What about demon wraiths?  Can swim, can fly, no emotions fear or pain.  They wont drop weapons or millions of leather thongs or anything like that.  Just pure combat.  Plus dragon fire breath.  And the ambush tag.  Should be fun, right?
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Org

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2009, 08:10:48 pm »

Make dragon warriors! Super strong, tough, and breath FIRE!

Or bronze gobbos! Goblins that have the stats of a bronze collosus!
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Sir_Geo

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2009, 08:53:13 pm »

I like the idea of flying thieves. After I figured out the basics of fortress defense I worried very little even when I was sieged. It wasn't until I embarked on a biome that had harpies that I started re-learning the whole fort killing experience. (first year, the ground ended up getting set on fire by a fire imp at the same time too so I was pretty much boned)
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Rysith

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Re: Hard Mod
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2009, 10:40:21 pm »

Yeah I like your ideas as far as elf armor.  Thats sounds like the way to go.  Id have to make their weapons a little bit less than steel though, so that the wooden elf weapons dont become the better choice to arm your soldiers with.  Or maybe I could just give them elven arrows that had higher damage, and make all Dark Elves either bowmen or wrestlers (magi?).  Their fireball attack is more powerful than their weapons, so it makes more sense to have them less weapon dependant I guess.

Play around with the [MINIMUM_SIZE] tags on the weapon. You should be able to get weapons that the elves can wield without allowing dwarves to (the same way that you can't give all of your soldiers mauls, for example). If you have to make them two-handed that's not that big a deal, their shields don't help much anyway and you can increase DAMBLOCK to compensate. Also, remember that these will mostly be no-quality weapons/armor, and you want to scale them out to high quality or even exceptional steel equivelents.

Quote
As for my lizardmen/birdmen idea....scratch that.  What about demon wraiths?  Can swim, can fly, no emotions fear or pain.  They wont drop weapons or millions of leather thongs or anything like that.  Just pure combat.  Plus dragon fire breath.  And the ambush tag.  Should be fun, right?

I really like that. I'll go adapt my flying thieves into demon wraiths and post them, if that sounds good to you.
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