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Author Topic: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...  (Read 5388 times)

Yanlin

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #30 on: April 03, 2009, 09:55:47 am »

I think he's referring to LIQUID nitrogen. That shit is EXTREMELY cold. I'm talking about -192c! (65 Kelvin!)
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Rezan

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #31 on: April 03, 2009, 10:02:15 am »

I second the ones Mainiac support. Microphone and wads of cash seem like good ideas.

@Yanlin: ...Do you think mainiac would confuse liquid with gaseous nitrogen? That's just insulting to his/her intelligence. Think about it. What would a small amount of liquid nitrogen be able to do? Virtually nothing. Maybe if you're talking a relatively large dose of liquid helium you could do something like that, but you'd need like, a fire-truck and thousands of litres.

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Yanlin

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #32 on: April 03, 2009, 10:29:27 am »

Hey, they got it by the thousands of liters. Remember that gas can be compressed.

Maybe liquid helium. But as far as I know, that is far less cost effective.
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Neonivek

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #33 on: April 03, 2009, 10:34:30 am »

Hey, they got it by the thousands of liters. Remember that gas can be compressed.

Maybe liquid helium. But as far as I know, that is far less cost effective.

I was kinda iffy if it actually existed in Nuclear Power Plants. I am leaning towards no if only because in the case of a cooling failure your trying to replace HUGE systems with handheld tools.

In theory I guess it could be used to keep surrounding systems cool rather then the Core Itself which you wouldn't be able to even go near. Which you would do with an entire team equipped with these.
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mainiac

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #34 on: April 03, 2009, 10:53:01 am »

Nuclear plants go through vast amounts of water to absorb the heat as part of their normal operations.  As long as the rate of reaction is kept in kept in check, this is all the cooling you need.

While I don't feel like looking up the specific heat of liquid nitrogen, I can tell you that it's going to be a lot less then the specific heat of water.  Water has a very high specific heat due to it's strong polarity allowing for hydrogen bonding.  Nitrogen has very weak intermolecular bonds.  So the heat absorbed by raising the temperature of water from 300K to 1300K is going to be a lot more then then heat absorbed by raising the temperature of liquid nitrogen from 20K to 100K (or whatever temp pressurized nitrogen evaporates at) and then raising the temperature of gaseous nitrogen from 100K to 1300K.

Edit: Btw, I call dibs on pushing the big red button if we ever need to.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 10:57:27 am by mainiac »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #35 on: April 03, 2009, 04:59:44 pm »

Medieval weapons in the game aren't really there because they're useful (though a few are), but as a nod to Oubliette, the game LCS was originally based on. I added the Daisho weapon, which is mechanically identical to the Sword but is not in Oubliette, just for the hell of it. I don't have a problem with adding a bow for similar reasons.

I always thought it was there to be entirely Nerdy. Basically buying Replica swords and armor for LARP and Dungeons and Dragons. (and possibly collections)

Hense why the Mithril Armor is useless, because it is plastic LARP armor. (or at least was)

Well, that's presumably the in-game explanation for why the store exists. ;) Why else would there be a nerdy medieval weapons and costume store in the middle of the city?

I'd make the microphone a megaphone instead, though I'm not sure who would carry it. For a microphone you'd presumably need speakers, while a megaphone is the Liberal Voice Projector Of Choice for leading protests and starting riots.
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Neonivek

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #36 on: April 03, 2009, 05:33:40 pm »

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For a microphone you'd presumably need speakers

You would think so wouldn't you? But I see more of a Interview in the streets sort of deal where the Microphone has a certain status symbol related to it. It is its ability to help you bypass people's mental barriers that makes the microphone a social weapon rather then its ability to blast sound into their ears.
-At least that is my intent when I first came up with it.

As for who would get Megaphones? Protestors so probably Hippies.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 08:32:07 pm by Neonivek »
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Guy Montag

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #37 on: April 03, 2009, 05:44:05 pm »

Well, since they made like, 6 copies of the Pancor Jackhammer in their entirely experimental production run, which never found a buyer for their Conservative Baby-Killer Assault Gun contract, I don't think anybody would have one. Same with UZIs.

LCS has a bunch of common/archtypical weapons for a reason.

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Wiles

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #38 on: April 03, 2009, 11:24:57 pm »

Megaphones are a good idea, they're annoying as hell. I remember trying to study for midterms and some activist  or somesuch marched around the building with a megaphone. Problem was either the megaphone was crap or they had no idea how to use it because you couldn't make out a word they said. I don't image they engendered very much support for their cause.
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Oksbad

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #39 on: April 04, 2009, 02:51:04 am »

May I suggest a few new weapons?

-PANCOR Jackhammer, automatic shotgun, hits up to three times, found rarely on CCS bosses

I get that we all played Fallout and thought this was cool, but you realize that only about five of them were ever made, right?

Yeah I know that they're rare, hence their use being limited to powerful CSS bosses. I do guess that they are too rare for even that that, so it doesn't have to be a PANCOR jackhammer, I just suggest an automatic shotgun.

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-Sawed off shotgun, less accurate than a shotgun, but can be concealed under clothes (like a pistol), is banned earlier than normal shotguns (C or M)

This should only ever be available from the Black Market. As a Liberal organization, the LCS would have trouble attracting the kind of gun nuts who can make these. I also question whether it really fills a niche--the only advantage over a shotgun is that it's easier to conceal, so why not use a pistol?

Err, can't you just saw off a bit of the barrel of a shotgun to make a (primitive) sawn off? The only advantage over a SHOTGUN it that it's easier to conceal. It packs more punch than a PISTOL though...
 
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-Bow, just for the heck of it

Useless. No reason to use a bow when there are rifles available. The only advantage it might have is that it's quiet, but it's impossible to conceal, and since you're always engaging your targets at close range, it doesn't matter if they can hear you.

(In real life)No reason to use Kung-fu/sword/axe Liberals either...

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-Uzi, weaker version of MP5, cheaper than MP5 and is legal at C gun control

There's no reason to stock LCS with a complete collection of nearly equivalent small arms. Even distinguishing guns from melee weapons is questionable considering that you never fight at range.

This I can concede on since I though that some (but not all) automatics would be legal in the US.

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I also suggest re-adding a way to acquire tanks (though it should be horrifically difficult)

Why?

Because, to the extent of my knowledge, you used to be able to acquire tanks in a difficult manner. (Playing music at them in a siege I believe). The difficulty/odd procedure required to get them probably deterred many from simply abusing them to win the game. I am NOT suggesting that LCS tanks be something seen in your average game, I would prefer them to be like the Ship of the Line in Sid Meier's Pirates!, not seen in a regular game, and one has to put lots of effort to get one.

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Perhaps to mounting weapons on Jeeps (for a hefty price)? (should beef up escapes! )

I wonder if site actions should be possible at all (at least outside the Industrial District) without using a vehicle. As I've said before, it's really implausible to be able to kidnap someone or escape from the police in broad daylight on foot.

But what kind of weapon do you have that needs to be mounted on a vehicle? A TOW missile or something? Please.

Stop attacking a strawman. I was thinking more like a machine gun.

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May I also suggest taxi driving as an illegal fund raising method? You'd need stolen taxi cab and a guy with driving skill and the act raises this skill. Rarely you might be caught and be charge with auto theft. (I say rare since cabs look the same and I assume the LCS changes the plates.)

This isn't GTA. If you're going to engage in illegal fundraising, it should be something that tweaks the sensibilities of Conservative society. Selling brownies, very okay. Prostitution, okay. Tie-dye t-shirts, well, those are sort of Liberal (though I'm unclear on why they're illegal). Illegal taxi driving? Fail.

You have a point. However I believe the differences between vehicles should be more pronounced. At the moment, the only useful vehicles are the ones without alarms (for the early game) and sports cars, due to their speed. I'm trying to flesh out the vehicles more, by allowing the rarer cars to have some unique properties. I do think that the "Liberal Taxi Driver can kidnap conservatives" addition to my idea could be a good one.
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I always just found it peculiar that the police are always able to pin the crime on you 100 percent of the time. The fact that organized crime rings exist at all without being bombed to hell by the national guard is evidence enough that this is not strictly the case in reality.

Cosmonot

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2009, 06:29:29 am »

May I suggest a few new weapons?

-PANCOR Jackhammer, automatic shotgun, hits up to three times, found rarely on CCS bosses

I get that we all played Fallout and thought this was cool, but you realize that only about five of them were ever made, right?

Yeah I know that they're rare, hence their use being limited to powerful CSS bosses. I do guess that they are too rare for even that that, so it doesn't have to be a PANCOR jackhammer, I just suggest an automatic shotgun.

An automatic shotgun would be rather pointless by the time you get it, since body armor takes all the sting out of shotguns. Also, currently shotguns do less damage per shot than an assault rifle most of the time.
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-Sawed off shotgun, less accurate than a shotgun, but can be concealed under clothes (like a pistol), is banned earlier than normal shotguns (C or M)

This should only ever be available from the Black Market. As a Liberal organization, the LCS would have trouble attracting the kind of gun nuts who can make these. I also question whether it really fills a niche--the only advantage over a shotgun is that it's easier to conceal, so why not use a pistol?

Err, can't you just saw off a bit of the barrel of a shotgun to make a (primitive) sawn off? The only advantage over a SHOTGUN it that it's easier to conceal. It packs more punch than a PISTOL though...

Again, shotguns don't do that much damage in LCS. The 44 magnum does more damage most of the time, and also has much better armor penetration when it is needed.
 
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-Bow, just for the heck of it

Useless. No reason to use a bow when there are rifles available. The only advantage it might have is that it's quiet, but it's impossible to conceal, and since you're always engaging your targets at close range, it doesn't matter if they can hear you.

(In real life)No reason to use Kung-fu/sword/axe Liberals either...

This is not a strong justification for adding an unnecessary feature.
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I also suggest re-adding a way to acquire tanks (though it should be horrifically difficult)

Why?

Because, to the extent of my knowledge, you used to be able to acquire tanks in a difficult manner. (Playing music at them in a siege I believe). The difficulty/odd procedure required to get them probably deterred many from simply abusing them to win the game. I am NOT suggesting that LCS tanks be something seen in your average game, I would prefer them to be like the Ship of the Line in Sid Meier's Pirates!, not seen in a regular game, and one has to put lots of effort to get one.

I'm pretty sure that the ability to recruit tanks was an oversight. It's also not something that can really be justified; it's implausible that the LCS could acquire a tank and skilled crewmembers, or hide the thing after using it.
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Perhaps to mounting weapons on Jeeps (for a hefty price)? (should beef up escapes! )

I wonder if site actions should be possible at all (at least outside the Industrial District) without using a vehicle. As I've said before, it's really implausible to be able to kidnap someone or escape from the police in broad daylight on foot.

But what kind of weapon do you have that needs to be mounted on a vehicle? A TOW missile or something? Please.

Stop attacking a strawman. I was thinking more like a machine gun.

It doesn't matter whether it's a machine gun or a TOW missile. The LCS likely has little use for a vehicle that will draw police attention as soon as it leaves the garage.
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Oksbad

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2009, 07:16:20 am »

May I suggest a few new weapons?

-PANCOR Jackhammer, automatic shotgun, hits up to three times, found rarely on CCS bosses

I get that we all played Fallout and thought this was cool, but you realize that only about five of them were ever made, right?

Yeah I know that they're rare, hence their use being limited to powerful CSS bosses. I do guess that they are too rare for even that that, so it doesn't have to be a PANCOR jackhammer, I just suggest an automatic shotgun.

An automatic shotgun would be rather pointless by the time you get it, since body armor takes all the sting out of shotguns. Also, currently shotguns do less damage per shot than an assault rifle most of the time.

Armored enemies are a minority when considering who you fight. Civilian conservatives, security guards, prison guards, debate attackers don't pack armor.


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-Sawed off shotgun, less accurate than a shotgun, but can be concealed under clothes (like a pistol), is banned earlier than normal shotguns (C or M)

This should only ever be available from the Black Market. As a Liberal organization, the LCS would have trouble attracting the kind of gun nuts who can make these. I also question whether it really fills a niche--the only advantage over a shotgun is that it's easier to conceal, so why not use a pistol?

Err, can't you just saw off a bit of the barrel of a shotgun to make a (primitive) sawn off? The only advantage over a SHOTGUN it that it's easier to conceal. It packs more punch than a PISTOL though...

Again, shotguns don't do that much damage in LCS. The 44 magnum does more damage most of the time, and also has much better armor penetration when it is needed.

Just because one weapon is better is not an excuse to not introduce weaker ones. In any case shotguns are more accurate than pistols, making them better for inexperienced troopers.


 
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-Bow, just for the heck of it

Useless. No reason to use a bow when there are rifles available. The only advantage it might have is that it's quiet, but it's impossible to conceal, and since you're always engaging your targets at close range, it doesn't matter if they can hear you.

(In real life)No reason to use Kung-fu/sword/axe Liberals either...

This is not a strong justification for adding an unnecessary feature.

Again, this was more for novelty then a real suggestion. The fox appears to be willing to add obsolete weaponry, so I will press this point no further.

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I also suggest re-adding a way to acquire tanks (though it should be horrifically difficult)

Why?

Because, to the extent of my knowledge, you used to be able to acquire tanks in a difficult manner. (Playing music at them in a siege I believe). The difficulty/odd procedure required to get them probably deterred many from simply abusing them to win the game. I am NOT suggesting that LCS tanks be something seen in your average game, I would prefer them to be like the Ship of the Line in Sid Meier's Pirates!, not seen in a regular game, and one has to put lots of effort to get one.

I'm pretty sure that the ability to recruit tanks was an oversight. It's also not something that can really be justified; it's implausible that the LCS could acquire a tank and skilled crewmembers, or hide the thing after using it.


Perhaps, but then again you can't exactly justify stopping a SWAT raid by debating fiscal policy over automatic weapons fire. I believe that you expect too much realism out of this game (or am I expecting too little?), I personally see this game as a game where you can do crazy stuff that may be unrealistic (I think that the FOX may have the same philosophy(though probably a bit milder) seeing as he strengthened martial arts to make it possible to raise a Liberal Kung-foo group), like GTA where gangsters can drive tanks and pilot jump jets. In a nutshell I'm saying that the craziness potential is one of this game's charms.

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Perhaps to mounting weapons on Jeeps (for a hefty price)? (should beef up escapes! )

I wonder if site actions should be possible at all (at least outside the Industrial District) without using a vehicle. As I've said before, it's really implausible to be able to kidnap someone or escape from the police in broad daylight on foot.

But what kind of weapon do you have that needs to be mounted on a vehicle? A TOW missile or something? Please.

Stop attacking a strawman. I was thinking more like a machine gun.

It doesn't matter whether it's a machine gun or a TOW missile. The LCS likely has little use for a vehicle that will draw police attention as soon as it leaves the garage.

Obviously such a vehicle would attract monster heat every time it was used, making it only useful when you have significant sleepers in the force (probably the same with tanks)

And again, I must state that the game does not (and should not) force the player to avoid police attention. The game gives player the option to fight off SWAT, the National Guard and the air force. It is clear the game was not designed to force a player to remain "under the radar".
« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 07:49:32 am by Oksbad »
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I always just found it peculiar that the police are always able to pin the crime on you 100 percent of the time. The fact that organized crime rings exist at all without being bombed to hell by the national guard is evidence enough that this is not strictly the case in reality.

Rezan

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2009, 09:18:40 am »

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Armored enemies are a minority when considering who you fight. Civilian conservatives, security guards, prison guards, debate attackers don't pack armor.

...Most of these can all be dispatched with a handgun, there is no need to use a heavy weapon for any of these targets. When faced with targets that DO pose a threat (meaning they have assault weaponry and know how to use it) they tend to be armoured. It's just pointless. Sure, it's horrifying if in the hands of Conservative riot police, opposing a mass of civilians, but for the LCS? What use is it?

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Just because one weapon is better is not an excuse to not introduce weaker ones. In any case shotguns are more accurate than pistols, making them better for inexperienced troopers.

I agree with that. Though your specifications are all off. The sawn-off should have better accuracy, and lower damage (fewer pellets hit the targets due to spread, but the spread makes it easier to hit targets).

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Again, this was more for novelty then a real suggestion. The fox appears to be willing to add obsolete weaponry, so I will press this point no further.

A bow is not useful for what the LCS does. A bow is hard to draw, requires a lot of skill to use, and draws attention to itself. Not that it wouldn't be funny, but it's a lot like that cross item - useless.

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Perhaps, but then again you can't exactly justify stopping a SWAT raid by debating fiscal policy over automatic weapons fire. I believe that you expect too much realism out of this game (or am I expecting too little?), I personally see this game as a game where you can do crazy stuff that may be unrealistic (I think that the FOX may have the same philosophy(though probably a bit milder) seeing as he strengthened martial arts to make it possible to raise a Liberal Kung-foo group), like GTA where gangsters can drive tanks and pilot jump jets. In a nutshell I'm saying that the craziness potential is one of this game's charms.

Unless the debater has around 15 tactics, that is impossible. You cannot stopa SWAT raid without killing a large number of attackers, and a debater rarely has that much impact on the fighting in such a situation.

Tanks do not belong in the game as LCS resources. There's good crazy, then there's stupid crazy.

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Obviously such a vehicle would attract monster heat every time it was used, making it only useful when you have significant sleepers in the force (probably the same with tanks)

And again, I must state that the game does not (and should not) force the player to avoid police attention. The game gives player the option to fight off SWAT, the National Guard and the air force. It is clear the game was not designed to force a player to remain "under the radar".

Vehicles don't really play that big a part in the game, and if someone saw a non-military vehicle with a mounted weapon, the national guard would blow it to smithereens. This crosses the good-stupid line.
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Oksbad

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2009, 12:58:17 pm »

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Armored enemies are a minority when considering who you fight. Civilian conservatives, security guards, prison guards, debate attackers don't pack armor.

...Most of these can all be dispatched with a handgun, there is no need to use a heavy weapon for any of these targets. When faced with targets that DO pose a threat (meaning they have assault weaponry and know how to use it) they tend to be armoured. It's just pointless. Sure, it's horrifying if in the hands of Conservative riot police, opposing a mass of civilians, but for the LCS? What use is it?

There's no such kill as overkill  ;D . Anyway, though handguns and shotguns are useful, a shot to the torso can fail to kill (even if they are "flavor texted" this means your squad can waste more shots on them, even if they're gonna bleed to death by the end of the round) an automatic shotgun would be very helpful then. Furthermore shots to the arms & legs can fail to incapacitate the target altogether, letting a security guard put a .44 round into your head. If you were using an auto shotgun, then you may have hit multiple times, causing enough damage to at least flavor text him.

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Just because one weapon is better is not an excuse to not introduce weaker ones. In any case shotguns are more accurate than pistols, making them better for inexperienced troopers.

I agree with that. Though your specifications are all off. The sawn-off should have better accuracy, and lower damage (fewer pellets hit the targets due to spread, but the spread makes it easier to hit targets).

Um... OK.... I agree with your deductions, but where did I make those specifications...

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Again, this was more for novelty then a real suggestion. The fox appears to be willing to add obsolete weaponry, so I will press this point no further.

A bow is not useful for what the LCS does. A bow is hard to draw, requires a lot of skill to use, and draws attention to itself. Not that it wouldn't be funny, but it's a lot like that cross item - useless.

And yet we have the cross, no?

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Perhaps, but then again you can't exactly justify stopping a SWAT raid by debating fiscal policy over automatic weapons fire. I believe that you expect too much realism out of this game (or am I expecting too little?), I personally see this game as a game where you can do crazy stuff that may be unrealistic (I think that the FOX may have the same philosophy(though probably a bit milder) seeing as he strengthened martial arts to make it possible to raise a Liberal Kung-foo group), like GTA where gangsters can drive tanks and pilot jump jets. In a nutshell I'm saying that the craziness potential is one of this game's charms.

Unless the debater has around 15 tactics, that is impossible. You cannot stopa SWAT raid without killing a large number of attackers, and a debater rarely has that much impact on the fighting in such a situation.

I was thinking waves upon waves of debaters, but that logic may be flawed. Instead lets think about it this way: If you break into a prison with 6 debaters/Musicians you can go though as many prison guards as your wish. Suffice to say, no prison break has been executed with debate and music.

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Tanks do not belong in the game as LCS resources. There's good crazy, then there's stupid crazy.

I think there is room for some middle ground, how about you can acquire tanks (at great difficulty) and go on rampages with them but you have to bail out from the tank (or the tank gets blown up) after a certain period of time when heavy weapons/the air force shows up? If you are concerned about the specialty skills needed (personally I believe an abstraction to "driving" would be OK) then we can add a new "Tank" skill, that is (randomly) present in army vets, soldiers and possibly mercs (maybe they served as a tanker before becoming a hired gun?)

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Obviously such a vehicle would attract monster heat every time it was used, making it only useful when you have significant sleepers in the force (probably the same with tanks)

And again, I must state that the game does not (and should not) force the player to avoid police attention. The game gives player the option to fight off SWAT, the National Guard and the air force. It is clear the game was not designed to force a player to remain "under the radar".

Vehicles don't really play that big a part in the game, and if someone saw a non-military vehicle with a mounted weapon, the national guard would blow it to smithereens. This crosses the good-stupid line.

My point was that vehicles should be more fleshed out. In any case I believe you are misunderstanding me.

I think you believe that when I say "Weapons on Jeeps" I mean the ones below

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I DO NOT......


What is in my mind is a 50 cal machine gun on a low tripod at the back of the Jeep, covered with a cover when not in use.

A 50 cal:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

With Bush as reference:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cmon, you can hide that on the back of a jeep, no?



The only reason I'm suggesting jeeps for this is because they are the only vehicle we have where it is possible to fire backwards without:

a. Sticking your head out the window
b. Shooting through the rear window

« Last Edit: April 04, 2009, 01:01:22 pm by Oksbad »
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I always just found it peculiar that the police are always able to pin the crime on you 100 percent of the time. The fact that organized crime rings exist at all without being bombed to hell by the national guard is evidence enough that this is not strictly the case in reality.

Neonivek

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Re: New Weapons, and a few other suggestions...
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2009, 01:01:40 pm »

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I think there is room for some middle ground, how about you can acquire tanks (at great difficulty) and go on rampages with them but you have to bail out from the tank (or the tank gets blown up) after a certain period of time when heavy weapons/the air force shows up?

Alright... I figured it was a matter of time before people starting to make Grand Theft Auto references.
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