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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 167756 times)

Buttery_Mess

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1650 on: November 16, 2011, 08:15:18 pm »

All true, but also pointing to an underlying problem.  The military system is awesome--powerful, detailed, versatile.  The military interface, however, is in my opinion the worst part (by far) of the "generally bad" interface.

This is very true. I love the military screen, although it would be nice to be able to sort through dwarves better and make use of all the space on a maximised window. However, for a game where there is so much micromanagement, there's very little useful micromanagement for coordinating military engagements. DF isn't Command & Conquer, but it would be nice if you could tell dwarves to hold ground, charge, retreat (in a specific direction or to a specific place) or skirmish on their own. As it is now, you can only tell them to hang about in a general area and hope they don't run off and do something stupid, or dither at the back of the battlements where they won't fire their crossbows at the enemy.
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MrWiggles

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1651 on: November 16, 2011, 08:26:36 pm »

All true, but also pointing to an underlying problem.  The military system is awesome--powerful, detailed, versatile.  The military interface, however, is in my opinion the worst part (by far) of the "generally bad" interface.

This is very true. I love the military screen, although it would be nice to be able to sort through dwarves better and make use of all the space on a maximised window. However, for a game where there is so much micromanagement, there's very little useful micromanagement for coordinating military engagements. DF isn't Command & Conquer, but it would be nice if you could tell dwarves to hold ground, charge, retreat (in a specific direction or to a specific place) or skirmish on their own. As it is now, you can only tell them to hang about in a general area and hope they don't run off and do something stupid, or dither at the back of the battlements where they won't fire their crossbows at the enemy.

All this stuff was suppose to be in the initial release for DF2010. But for time sake, it got cut, and looks like it'll be waiting until after the 10 or so short term caravan release.
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Eктωρ

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1652 on: December 07, 2011, 07:31:46 pm »

I love DF's UI and graphics. The only things that absolutely infuriates me are migrants. I always play with migrants off.
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Jiri Petru

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1653 on: December 08, 2011, 08:53:31 am »

It just occurred to me that Toady isn't probably interested in making a game any more. Now he's making a simulation. Which has some serious consequences in terms of playability, enjoyability, user-friendliness etc.

For the most part, it means focusing on world-gen and adventurer mode. It's very improbable that the fortress mode will see any serious improvements in near future (the next couple of years). Sure, it will get new cool stuff added like new industries, monsters, inns etc. but that's mostly just things that will have been added for the sake of world simulation/adventurer mode and will carry over to fortress mode sort of by accident. But at this point, adding new stuff doesn't really make the game better. At the same time, none of the serious issues of the fortress mode are likely to be addressed.

Which is a shame, really, because fortress mode is what interests me about this game.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2011, 09:05:13 am by Jiri Petru »
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FearfulJesuit

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1654 on: December 08, 2011, 09:17:52 am »

Nah.

It's still a game; it's just a simulation game. And the things that will make it a better simulation will also make it a better game. So worry not.
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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1655 on: December 08, 2011, 09:21:09 am »

It just occurred to me that Toady isn't probably interested in making a game any more. Now he's making a simulation. Which has some serious consequences in terms of playability, enjoyability, user-friendliness etc.

For the most part, it means focusing on world-gen and adventurer mode. It's very improbable that the fortress mode will see any serious improvements in near future (the next couple of years). Sure, it will get new cool stuff added like new industries, monsters, inns etc. but that's mostly just things that will have been added for the sake of world simulation/adventurer mode and will carry over to fortress mode sort of by accident. But at this point, adding new stuff doesn't really make the game better. At the same time, none of the serious issues of the fortress mode are likely to be addressed.

Which is a shame, really, because fortress mode is what interests me about this game.

On the other hand we got new type of sieges - necromancer one which has gameplay effect (proper enemy corpse handling)

We got vampires/werewolves as new element which can threaten even the safest fortresses from inside.

Small tweaks are there too (crime system).

I shall point out that theese changes are there because he needed to flesh out game part of DF more.

FearfulJesuit

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1656 on: December 08, 2011, 09:27:35 am »

I mean, if it's a simulation, it's a very bizarre simulation. A real simulation would be boring. This has just the right combination of simulation and game. If it were a simulation, we wouldn't have the necromancers, or the perpetual motion machines. Toady's done a very good job of walking the line between simulation and game.
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Kogut

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1657 on: December 08, 2011, 11:05:30 am »

It is a simulation of a fantasy worlds.
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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1658 on: December 08, 2011, 02:38:25 pm »

Where all crazy laws discovered by Dwarves must be written like this: !!Crazy law discovered by Urist Mcpeasant!!




Why this thread isn't sticked?
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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1659 on: December 09, 2011, 02:17:26 am »

It just occurred to me that Toady isn't probably interested in making a game any more. Now he's making a simulation. Which has some serious consequences in terms of playability, enjoyability, user-friendliness etc.

For the most part, it means focusing on world-gen and adventurer mode. It's very improbable that the fortress mode will see any serious improvements in near future (the next couple of years). Sure, it will get new cool stuff added like new industries, monsters, inns etc. but that's mostly just things that will have been added for the sake of world simulation/adventurer mode and will carry over to fortress mode sort of by accident. But at this point, adding new stuff doesn't really make the game better. At the same time, none of the serious issues of the fortress mode are likely to be addressed.

Which is a shame, really, because fortress mode is what interests me about this game.
I agree with the things you usually say, but here I have to ask--you did just see the "trade interface" in the dev log?  With any luck, Toady is working on the most tedious menu in the whole game as at this very moment!

MrWiggles

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1660 on: December 09, 2011, 06:19:53 am »


It just occurred to me that Toady isn't probably interested in making a game any more. Now he's making a simulation. Which has some serious consequences in terms of playability, enjoyability, user-friendliness etc.

For the most part, it means focusing on world-gen and adventurer mode. It's very improbable that the fortress mode will see any serious improvements in near future (the next couple of years). Sure, it will get new cool stuff added like new industries, monsters, inns etc. but that's mostly just things that will have been added for the sake of world simulation/adventurer mode and will carry over to fortress mode sort of by accident. But at this point, adding new stuff doesn't really make the game better. At the same time, none of the serious issues of the fortress mode are likely to be addressed.

Which is a shame, really, because fortress mode is what interests me about this game.

Adventure Mode has been langquishing for years really, as fas as active development went. 2011 and the later part of 2010 is the love its been needing for a while. Adventure Mode is suppose to be as verbose as Fortress Mode is, and in general any improvement in one will bleed into the other.

I suspect that getting World Gen stuff to happen actively during gameplay, is overall easier to deal with in Adventure Mode, due to its more sane passage of time, then with Fort Mode 72x faster time progression.

I agree with the things you usually say, but here I have to ask--you did just see the "trade interface" in the dev log?  With any luck, Toady is working on the most tedious menu in the whole game as at this very moment!

Doubt it's for Fort Mode, and just for Adventure Mode. Fort Mode trading improvment isn't suppose to be due until release 6.

BUT as I was just saying, they tend to bleed into one another, so maybe we'll see something in Fort Mode.
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Jiri Petru

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1661 on: December 09, 2011, 06:59:59 am »

It seems I've expressed myself very unclearly. So yes, even I am excited about the new developments like towns, catacombs, vampires & werewolves etc. And yes, they are indeed making the game better.

What I was trying to say is that the fortress mode currently has some huge issues. And I don't mean interface and controls, that's a whole different story, I mean things like micromanagement, illogical labour groupings and tedious labour management, frustrating job priorities, unbalanced happiness system, the horror named hauling, etc. etc. No need to name them, just read this thread. My point was that addressing issues like these would improve the game much more (in terms of effort/reward) than adding more and more new stuff.

(EDIT: And no, I'm not talking about bugs. I'm talking about bad design, unbalanced or unfinished features, chaotic implementation etc.)

I know Toady knows about these and will address them at some point in the future. What I was trying to say in the previous post was that I looked at present development goals and realised that none of these issues will be worked on in the following couple of years. That's why I said that Toady seems more interesting in making a simulation (ie. adding new stuff to make the simulation deeper) than a game (ie. focusing on how well the game plays now, how user friendly it is, removing tedious and unfun elements etc.).


That's frustrating for me as a fan. I haven't been able to enjoy the game really. I think I've played only three fortresses since 2008. The most fun part for me is participating in DF let's plays, but I can't really play the game myself for long. There's simply too many hurdles that make the game unfun for me. I'm patiently waiting for these to be addressed but it's not coming, and it seems it won't come. And no, a lack of vampires or bees is not what's keeping me from this game.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2011, 10:04:48 am by Jiri Petru »
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Lungfish

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1662 on: December 09, 2011, 07:34:10 am »

Is "nothing" an option?
Even the terribly mundane aspects, like the constant checklist of minor tasks, gives me a kind of zen-like focus, like trimming/maintaining a banzai tree. DwarfTherapist takes care of most of the mindbendingly difficult stuff like finding a dwarf who is already good at something to do that thing instead of picking one at random, or assigning an emergency task to a lot of dwarves at once.

Accidentally deleting a burrow, or the sheer monotony trading screen can be brutal, and wrapping my mind around the military system had me on a long hiatus... but when you look at all the stuff you have to do in order to make soap, some people get excited about learning it and some people don't, and that's just the way it is. Same goes for adventurer mode, I guess; I walked west for a long damn time, tried to kill some stuff but it ran too fast, couldn't really find any towns, and gave up. Not for everyone.

I did have the feeling that gameplay "ends" when you become a stable kingdom, which also put me on a long hiatus - but that's more an attitude thing, as you can always keep marching on toward mega-projects or conquering hell... though I usually just start over elsewhere in the world with the intention of maybe one day adventuring through my many ruins, and hoping to one day make the perfect fortress.

 Tutorial 'scenarios' might have been good back in the day... But then again, that's what youtube is for.
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zwei

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1663 on: December 09, 2011, 07:46:31 am »

...

Problem is that most people here got used to those issues. Learned game with them. They are kinda hard to notice when you instinctivelly work around them.

I just wish *we* were given opportunity to do this ourselves - why aren't job priorities in outside config file? Why arent labors/skill rawed? Thought happiness values?

Kogut

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1664 on: December 09, 2011, 07:49:26 am »

I thoroughly hate inability to set job priorities. It requires day to code and test it (otherwise DF code is really strange and/or needs full rewrite), requested for years, fixes multiple problems (brokers, doctors, diplomats etc).
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