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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 294808 times)

Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #390 on: April 28, 2009, 09:03:56 pm »

This.

Dwarf Fortress needs a "fast forward" button. 2x, 4x, and 8x speeds.

You can achieve this by increasing the FPS cap, at least in young forts that aren't murdering your CPU yet.
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Aqizzar

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #391 on: April 28, 2009, 09:16:21 pm »

This.

Dwarf Fortress needs a "fast forward" button. 2x, 4x, and 8x speeds.

You can achieve this by increasing the FPS cap, at least in young forts that aren't murdering your CPU yet.

Then that isn't much of a solution is it?
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Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #392 on: April 28, 2009, 09:31:24 pm »

Then that isn't much of a solution is it?

It depends what you're trying to fast-forward to.  If you just want to fight off invasions with your original 7, it'll work nicely.  If you're trying to fast-forward through the endgame, not so much.

A real fast-forward would have to be something more drastic like temporarily giving up control of the fortress (like in those end-the-game-but-don't-abandon-the-fortress suggestions).
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L0rd_ZOD

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #393 on: April 28, 2009, 10:55:40 pm »

1.Lack of achievements/goals/objectives
I managed to get 20+ dwarves, fend off a siege, find the HFS area. Now there's nothing left to do. Its takes ages to learn the game, then you run out of things to do very very quickly. Its like learning to speak Chinese only to find out all Chinese people now speak Spanish.

2.Lack of events
You play a game because you want to escape from real life for a while. Dwarf fortress tends to have lapses where nothing happens at all making the fun factor fall. This could be fixed by inserting random events into the game, Im not saying like a message apears saying "12 dwarves have died" but more like having trolls set up shop just outside your fort etc.

3. Dwarfs do everything but what you tell them to do. ( yes I have turned off everything but what I want them to do, somehow they still find excuses not to do it)
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Neonivek

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #394 on: April 28, 2009, 11:19:00 pm »

What is hillarious is Dwarf Fortress is actually somewhat fast... it is just the slowdown that makes it seem much slower.

Though even at 10x speed (if it was possible) the years do pass by slowly... I kinda wish there was a Timeskip ability somehow.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2009, 11:58:23 pm by Neonivek »
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MrWiggles

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #395 on: April 28, 2009, 11:48:08 pm »

1.Lack of achievements/goals/objectives
I managed to get 20+ dwarves, fend off a siege, find the HFS area. Now there's nothing left to do. Its takes ages to learn the game, then you run out of things to do very very quickly. Its like learning to speak Chinese only to find out all Chinese people now speak Spanish.

2.Lack of events
You play a game because you want to escape from real life for a while. Dwarf fortress tends to have lapses where nothing happens at all making the fun factor fall. This could be fixed by inserting random events into the game, Im not saying like a message apears saying "12 dwarves have died" but more like having trolls set up shop just outside your fort etc.

3. Dwarfs do everything but what you tell them to do. ( yes I have turned off everything but what I want them to do, somehow they still find excuses not to do it)
Even the standing orders?
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magikarcher

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #396 on: April 29, 2009, 12:19:13 am »

I have tried to teach two VERY intelligent friends of mine how to play DF, and they lost interest and because they couldn't understand it. I was disappointed and am constantly trying to get them to try it again. One of them is an 'impure gamer', meaning he sees the graphics and nothing else, and the other is fairly open but just doesn't get it. I hope some day they can share my love of DF, it IS the best game ever, just not my favorite (sorry toady). TBTH I would have stopped playing it by now if I didn't know it was going to be updated eventually.
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G-Flex

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #397 on: April 29, 2009, 12:28:53 am »

Honestly, I don't think DF will ever be the kind of game for someone who "sees the graphics and nothing else", but yeah.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #398 on: April 29, 2009, 03:14:02 am »

A "fast forward" i think is something that doesnt work so well in DF.

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Jiri Petru

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #399 on: April 29, 2009, 04:03:34 am »

If nothing else, you could store paths from workshops to appropirate stockpiles. These rarely change and don't need to be recalculated. Plus they are easily identified - the game would take each workshop and store the paths from and the stockpiles it uses.
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Mel_Vixen

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #400 on: April 29, 2009, 04:29:29 am »

Thats also a ice i dea. especally because you can then also select which material in the workshop is used.
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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #401 on: April 29, 2009, 05:47:19 am »

Fastforwarding won't be needed in the future when there's more 'things' that will happen.   
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CoyoteTheClever

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #402 on: April 29, 2009, 06:53:07 am »

I don't think tutorials are really anything that Toady should need to work on. There are lots of great tutorials done by the people on these boards that Toady could just redirect people to in the help files. The interface isn't -that- bad either, it is learnable to say the least. The graphics are the real problem. It isn't that Toady even needs to do anything directly about those though, he just needs to put in more support for people like Mike Mayday. Not necessarily fancy 3-D support, but something that eliminates graphical glitches and makes it easier for everyone to develop tilesets. And these things should be referenced in the beginning too, because newbies to the game don't necessarily know about the wealth of tutorials and tilesets and interface mods (Like Dwarf Manager) found here.
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Andir

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #403 on: April 29, 2009, 06:58:26 am »

Barring any major UI revamps, I would suggest at least providing (working with one of the other sites dedicated to DF files?) a repository of sorts that enables a user to select, download and automatically install graphic tile sets (character and tiles) without ever having to touch a file editor.  A configuration tool would go a long way for that, selecting video settings, game settings, etc.
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FistsOfTinsel

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #404 on: April 29, 2009, 09:51:39 am »

Multi-threaded applications, and in particular games, require a lot of concurrency (meaning that the threads do stuff on their own, while using data from other threads). If you do that wrong, you get all sorts of interesting effects, mostly manifesting in crashes. Concurrency is *hard*. It is even harder in languages like C/++, which, IIRC, is used to write Dwarf Fortress.

I'd like to add a bit to this:

I've been writing multithreaded apps in C++ (on Solaris and Windows) for about 10 years now, and I think you may be overstating the untenability of the problem.  Yes, it does take more thought and a new mindset to write parallelized apps, but it's not a deal breaker.  If DF has followed relatively sound programming practices (encapsulation, using data accessors when possible, avoiding globals, etc.), it would be quite conceivable to scale it up to using multiple threads.

From what I can see, DF wouldn't benefit that much, performance-wise, in its current ASCII glory, from dedicating a thread to presentation, although it would probably be necessary to keep yourself sane in terms of managing the display resources (it would probably be a pain to keep track screen updates if every worker thread was painting the screen).  The big issue would be whether the simulation engine behind the scenes is ripe for parallelization.  The game is obviously "turn based", and I'm guessing that each cycle visits the different entities needing attention and updates their state, and to keep things simple, the states are being being updated based on what has happened immeidately before. 

In other words, during Cycle N, each entity is not updated based on what the state of the universe was at Cycle N-1 (call it the "consistent" method), but instead based on what the universe is on the current state of Cycle N (call it the "dirty" method).  In the dirty method, the order that the entities are visited would subtly change the outcome if it were scrambled.  The consistent method would involve keeping copies around for all the state information from the previous cycle (possibly using copy-on-write to avoid unnecessary memory & cpu consumption in maintaing identical copies) until you were done processing cycle N.

With a scheme like that, you could probably parallelize the simulation engine pretty easily - just divvy up the entities across worker threads.  The consistent method would mean that the simulation would always have the same outcome from cycle N-1 to N (barring intentional randomization), whereas the dirty method might result in cycles playing out differently (due to race conditions).  The dirty method would also entail putting in a lot of mutexes to protect memory; the consistent method would always be reading from a read-consistent view and would only need a mutex to protect the occasional copy-on-write operation.

The dirty method would be faster in a single-threaded environment, but as you'd scale up the number of cpus, the consistent method would probably be better, as you'd have fewer mutex collisions.  With a simpler locking model, the consistent method would probably also be better in terms of avoiding programming errors due to deadlocks.

Also, I'd be interested to hear why you think that C++ is more difficult for multithreaded apps than other languages.  Sure, there are issues with memory managment, but that can be resolved pretty easily with counted pointers and a good class library; the big problems you face with parallel programming has a lot more to do with concurrency and resource management, something you need to use brainpower on, regardless of the language used.
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