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Author Topic: What turns you off about DF?  (Read 168212 times)

zwei

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1635 on: November 14, 2011, 07:51:41 am »

The game is tedious.

Yep, most foprtresses die of micromanagement for me too. After certain point, most of your gameplay is spent on maintenance "checklist":

Requeue brewing task on repeat
Requeue cooking task on repeat
Requeue other "on repeat, no brainer" tasks (dye thread or cloth, process plants, mill plants, sew cloth image ...)
Queue other maintenance stuff (soap production, some bars, barrels, bins, bolts, etc...)

Check bodypart stockpile and dump it to atom smasher/magma.

Mark plants to be gathered, trees to be cut.

Mark extra metal items to be melted.

Check mandates and queue production.

Trade with caravan - which consists of sifting through junk to find stuff you want (meltable objects on late game, plaster, etc ... ). Hammer new trade agreement which is nearly identical to your last one.

Deal with yet another siege - which means tons of hauling, corpse disposal, marking stuff to be melted and generally boring stuff.

Culling animal herds.

...

And THEN, there is "brand new game" tedium. Like making yet another plant stockpile which contains only brewable plants, another which contains only millable plants, setting some options (gather outside refuse, forbid on death, set drinks to be not cookable, reserve 5 barrels for brewing, set record keeping to maximum ...), making uniform(s) and layouting squads ...

Stuff that is pretty much the same for each and every bootup. And which makes you reconsider starting new fort.

Thank god for each automated task.

Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1636 on: November 14, 2011, 10:20:04 am »

The game is tedious. Full stop.

It has some great moments thanks to its depth... enough to make it worth playing. The problem is that these are bogged down in too much menial tasks that are no fun at all. Endless micromanagement just to keep your fortress running, spending hours in miles long lists and doing many more unfun tasks.

As more and more features get added, even more micromanagement is required to achieve the same things - an oft quoted example is the new military system. While it is true it adds new options, which is always good, is also requires the player to spend more time fiddling with menus than before. Which is just bad design. Dtto for healthcare, revamped materials and many more new features.

In short, the game needs to greatly improve its tedium/fun ratio by:

1) Sensible interface (!!!) that minimizes the number of tasks that need to be done regularly, and makes important tasks (ie. setting up a military) as quick and easy as possible.
2) Optional automation for the menial tasks that are no fun. For example all production should be automatized - I hate how I have to order new batches of socks all the time. A great example of automation are the new beehives.

As it stands, I am unable to play Dwarf Fortress for long before I get bored. I know there are fun events, monsters, sieges, accidents etc. waiting for me. I just don't have the will to slog through all the boring tasks to get to them any more.

All true, and that's the main reason I play Adventure Mode.
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zilpin

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1637 on: November 15, 2011, 11:09:17 am »




#1. Bugs.  Lots of them.  Old, well documented, reproducible, game-killing bugs.

#2. Tedious Micromanagement, particularly stockpiles.

#3. Bugs.


That's it.

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FritzPL

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1638 on: November 15, 2011, 04:16:43 pm »

OI, ye noble skinny elf bastards!

Do you have any idea why DF is 99.9% free of trolls?

cos' its hard as nails.

Trolls dont play game they dont understand. Troll schedule of de day:
1. Find a game main website
2. Download the game
3. M4K3 SUM AWSUM TROLLZ!!!!1!11

And that's it. DF is ASCII graphs in default, so they are discouraged. And they go find another game.


THIS is why this game should not be made any easier.
Or at least too easy.

Thank ye.
Fritz Sqvirrelvoiced sign out.

PlainTextMan

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1639 on: November 15, 2011, 06:10:10 pm »

Aside from basic tutorials on what each menue does and how to dig and change z-levels, the / * - + <page up> and <page down> usage in the menues really bugs me.  If the menues at least had a unified system for moving around and selecting things, it would be a major imporvement in my opinion.

Also, legendary thread, because ThreeToe posted in it.

Edit:  Upgrading to full Unicode would be a good step in my opinion.  It would allow for the game to retain its ASCII feel, but diversify what symbols represent what objects, allowing the creation of full graphical tilesets by the players, instead of forcing today to spend a few weeks on art projects.
YES, especially to that last part.

Frankly, I think the ASCII is quite practical, and a nice feature for me. Of course, some things in the UI aren't communicating as clearly as they could (should!) eg. ambigious symbols, inability to descern my legendary spear from another steel spear on the ground etc. but overall it's more the UI navigation and generally incoherent interface that bothers me, even as an experienced player who by and large enjoys the game.

Even if tile sets worked and looked better, the game would still be massively complex and slow to learn. Ostensibly pictures of real-life-recognizable things like buckets and beds are easier to memorise than symbols, so I'm definitely not against that users should have the option of a nice working tile set. However as has been said by several people now:
In-game tutorials for the newbies, please! Not that the tutorials on the wiki are bad, just that they aren't always up to date, and that they are not immediately visible to dabblers who try out the game.

Extensive in-game tutorials should be difficult to create and maintain. Perhaps tutorial fort recordings or some things like that can be packaged with each release. These can then be maintained by the community, and/or kept simple enough for maintainance by Toady and Three Toe. Or perhaps an in-game link to an official wiki tutorial would suffice.
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PlainTextMan

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1640 on: November 15, 2011, 06:13:07 pm »

Do you have any idea why DF is 99.9% free of trolls?

cos' its hard as nails.

Trolls dont play game they dont understand. Troll schedule of de day:
1. Find a game main website
2. Download the game
3. M4K3 SUM AWSUM TROLLZ!!!!1!11

And that's it. DF is ASCII graphs in default, so they are discouraged. And they go find another game.

THIS is why this game should not be made any easier.
Or at least too easy.

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.
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Quote from: Loud Whispers link=topic=95349.0
5. You haz rage and you must punch things, but you haz no arms. Pray to ARMOK - Dwarf Mantra
This is an exceptional Post, well crafted with paragraphs and encrusted with attempted punctuation, bad non-native-English-speaker glitches. May exhibit great insight and/or stupidity.
Quote from: Aramco link=topic=81421.msg2149268#msg2149268
I hate English. It may be my first language, but I hate it. It doesn't make any sense.

geneisnotlame

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1641 on: November 15, 2011, 07:37:20 pm »

i didn't know about q and ended up issuing all job commands through my manager's job list. needless to say i was delighted when a friend pointed it out to me, but he was delighted when he learned about the job list. i guess the mystery of the ui allows us to find our own ways of doing things
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Kogut

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1642 on: November 16, 2011, 03:48:57 am »

Do you have any idea why DF is 99.9% free of trolls?

cos' its hard as nails.

Trolls dont play game they dont understand. Troll schedule of de day:
1. Find a game main website
2. Download the game
3. M4K3 SUM AWSUM TROLLZ!!!!1!11

And that's it. DF is ASCII graphs in default, so they are discouraged. And they go find another game.

THIS is why this game should not be made any easier.
Or at least too easy.

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.
Startgame may still be hard but it should not be a excuse to ignore obvious bugs/interface problems.
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Tired of going decades without goblin sieges? Try The Fortress Defense Mod
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thvaz

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1643 on: November 16, 2011, 04:12:31 am »

Do you have any idea why DF is 99.9% free of trolls?

cos' its hard as nails.

Trolls dont play game they dont understand. Troll schedule of de day:
1. Find a game main website
2. Download the game
3. M4K3 SUM AWSUM TROLLZ!!!!1!11

And that's it. DF is ASCII graphs in default, so they are discouraged. And they go find another game.

THIS is why this game should not be made any easier.
Or at least too easy.

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.
Startgame may still be hard but it should not be a excuse to ignore obvious bugs/interface problems.

Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.
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zwei

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1644 on: November 16, 2011, 06:18:13 am »

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.

How can he have point? That post is in typical troll format, ffs.

:bait bite:

Footkerchief

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1645 on: November 16, 2011, 10:43:25 am »

Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.

Complaining about bugs is legit.
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Kogut

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1646 on: November 16, 2011, 10:45:19 am »

Kogut, the Bugfixes apostle of Bay12forum. Every posts he makes he preaches about the evil of Bugs.
Sigged.
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NakedFury

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1647 on: November 16, 2011, 04:16:32 pm »

New here.

What turns me off about DF is the interface.

Graphics = sort of fixed with the packs and stuff but the interface remains the same, its a turn offer for me. I still play the game but...its still there.
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The Merchant Of Menace

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1648 on: November 16, 2011, 04:26:33 pm »

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.

How can he have point? That post is in typical troll format, ffs.

:bait bite:
Not to mention the fact that people don't need to play the game in order to troll the community.
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Draco18s

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Re: What turns you off about DF?
« Reply #1649 on: November 16, 2011, 05:00:51 pm »

I admit, the man has a bit of a point there.

How can he have point? That post is in typical troll format, ffs.

:bait bite:
Not to mention the fact that people don't need to play the game in order to troll the community.

Heck, you don't even need to be trolling in order to troll.
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