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Author Topic: Thank you again, Toady One!  (Read 3815 times)

Asehujiko

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #15 on: April 28, 2009, 04:22:56 pm »

In my experience:
Steam is a flawed but otherwise completely functional system.
Impulse/SDC functions largely the same with some improvements in regards to offline modes but less impressive that it's bigger brother otherwise, overall, the worst of the two.
Direct2Drive is plain broken, no further elaboration needed.
EADM got itself de-installed by my anti virus, i guess that says alot about it.
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Strife26

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #16 on: April 28, 2009, 04:59:09 pm »

Thank you Toady. That is all.

Wait, no it isn't! I have a money order around here somewhere . . .
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Rilder

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #17 on: April 28, 2009, 09:00:18 pm »

Direct2Drive is plain broken, no further elaboration needed.

Errm? Admitidly I only used D2D a year ago and not for a full game (an Addon for Silent Hunter 4) but It worked quite well imho, it gave me a direct download for an EXE that installed the Addon, and a code to use for the installation. Was pretty trouble free.

Or have they turned into pirate-phobes and turned into steam?
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Neonivek

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #18 on: April 28, 2009, 09:05:23 pm »

Quote
not all companies are acting like EA

EA is starting to go back to the old CD-key method.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2009, 12:20:53 am »

You know, its not evil to get paid for your creations.

Gosh forbid that *I* make a living on my intellectual property.

Toady is an exception to the rule, just as everyone else on line who offer their content for free and lives off of t shirts and donations. For every toady, there hundred who cannot make a living from their independent free content IP.

I'll admit that some DRM are terribly aggressive, SPORE is just terrible, I could use up my re-installs with just my own computers. If I upgrade my OS I'll have to reinstall and use up a cd key. It more like I'm renting the game, then buying it.

Its goal isn't one fill with ill content.

In my opinion, systems akin to STEAM are a step in the right direction. CD key though simple are a real joke. They prevent theft of the game for less then a year, the more hot the product the less time you wait for a cd cracker.  And that not perfect either. I lost my cd key for WC3, and sadly thanks to my brother lack the booklet, which means to gain a legit cd key I have to repurchase it if I ever want to play on battle.net. And come on, its a blizzard product. Battle.net is half the reason for purchase.

Although there is no perfect answer, any system design by our hands can be circumvented eventually. It comes down to a compromise between length prevention of eventual piracy and consumer headache.

And this ties in with Copy Right laws are outdated, archaic. They need to be gutted and drastically reformed.
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azazel

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #20 on: April 29, 2009, 12:36:11 am »

MrWiggles? From TGR?

If so.. Rob here  ;D
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Krash

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #21 on: April 29, 2009, 03:47:18 am »

I just felt like mentioning this:

Sold exes of a recent stardock game after a few days: 18.000

Amount of connections to their server for said game: 120.000
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Tormy

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #22 on: April 29, 2009, 06:27:53 am »

Quote
not all companies are acting like EA

EA is starting to go back to the old CD-key method.


Now that is a good thing to hear, because EA was one of my favourite companies a couple of years ago.
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axus

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #23 on: April 29, 2009, 12:35:00 pm »

I appreciate that the challenge is inside the game, not at the installation part!

I've spent money on this game, because I feel like I'm contributing to it's development. 

I think DRM is a problem for people who play by the rules, and doesn't bother the people pirating games.  For the developer looking to extract the most profit from their game, they need to consider a few things. 
  • Some people will only buy the game if it's very easy to buy
  • Some people will only buy the game if they are unable pirate it
  • Some people will never pay for the game, but would pirate it
  • Some people will only buy a game to play along with their friends
I think I've been in each of these categories at one time or another.  These days, I'll only play a game if I can download it.  I haven't pirated a game in 10 years, unless you count downloading old games I'd bought before and lost the disks to.  iTunes is a good example of easy buying beating piracy.
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Kogan Loloklam

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #24 on: April 29, 2009, 01:28:25 pm »

You know, its not evil to get paid for your creations.

Gosh forbid that *I* make a living on my intellectual property.

Toady is an exception to the rule, just as everyone else on line who offer their content for free and lives off of t shirts and donations. For every toady, there hundred who cannot make a living from their independent free content IP.


...
And this ties in with Copy Right laws are outdated, archaic. They need to be gutted and drastically reformed.
And likely won't make any without free content IP either, except insofar as they can con others into buying it without knowing what kind of dross it is.

There are a few different ways that artists get paid. Copyright laws are fairly recent.

Toady is using an older form of artist support. He is Busking. This is similar to ancient traveling storytellers, who would go from town to town, telling stories for a living. Also similar to modern day caricature artists who travel with local fairs. Some people have traditionally made a killing doing this, but it doesn't work for everyone. That is where Patronage comes in. Someone does something for a different person who appreciates art and knows what they want. This is much more restrictive, and actually resembles the modern game publishers today.

Copyright is there to make the public patrons of artists. Copyright is, at it's very core, a socialist idea. The public pays for it by not having access to it if they are capable of copying it, but in return get more unique art without a slant from a particular patron.

One thing to understand in that though, is it is a mandate granted by the public. This is why DRM is total and complete failure, and why Toady One is doing so well busking.
The public grants the mandate by respecting what Copyright means, not because it is inherently a good system, but because by protecting their artists, they give the greatest public good. This mandate is not inviolate, just as Divine Rule was immune from losing it's mandate from the masses.

I watched the birth of Intellectual Piracy in the form it is today. I grew up in the climate where it morphed to what it is now. I have come to a few conclusions regarding the problems with copyright protection.

First, 80% of what DRM does is fights "Fair Use" and not "Piracy", as given by the Mandate from the people. Why is this a problem? Because when it is illegal to eat bread, your moral line against stealing it goes away. What that means in a nutshell is when you start making laws against something that shouldn't be illegal, respect for all laws touching the subject aren't respected. People who don't respect the law are people that haven't given a mandate to that law, therefore that law will eventually crumble, and may bring anything that attempts to hold it up down with it.

Second, things are overpriced. People understand it is work to create things, and everyone accepts that things must be distributed, but there are a lot of places where costs can be cut in companies with the savings going to the people. I have believed that for a long time, most people believe it, and justify high prices by "maybe there is something I've missed". There are plenty of places missed, but things can be significantly cheaper anyway. The Video Game Industry isn't as bad as the big budget movie industry and Music Industry. Artists should be paid well, and be able to live off their art, but never should they be given the ability to act as they do. People give the mandate of copyright to artists for their art, which while it might be their personality, is not as a general rule.

Third, Bundling and licences. We want what we want, and we want to own it. We don't want three artists to combine their works into a package and charge 2 times the price. Furthermore, we don't want to give a bunch of money to someone and have them say that they can take it away and keep our money if we don't do as they demand. The Mandate is to support artists to allow more artists to be there, not support Artists holding the Public by the balls. Can't anger who allows you to exist. Unfortunately, too many artists want fame, and not to share their art. Fame artists isn't what this mandate is for.

The Mandate for Copyright allows artists to make a living. Only by respecting that mandate of what the people are honestly willing to allow, and by ensuring they are not demanding more from the public than is right, does that mandate remain. Copyright is not a right of artists, it is a right of the people. It is a socialist concept, and could very easily go back to the capitalistic patronage game. We don't want that, hence why Copyright remains, but only as long as it is of benefit to the public. Some artists get it. Google Larry Flint. I hate him as a writer, but he understands the underlying dynamic of why we have copyright.
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PTTG??

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #25 on: April 29, 2009, 02:20:54 pm »

Those are very good categories, Axus. I would add; let's not forget those who won't pirate a game, but will still buy it despite any DRM. These people are perhaps the majority. We could go on, but we can assume that this is after any price-searching, advertising, and market targeting. From a business perspective, I'm not sure that your fourth group is relevant, so I would lump that under the first. So, of all those that might get the game:

-Those that will definitely get the game at this price "Civilians" (Note that this is potentially the majority)
-Those that will only buy the game if it's not too restrictive "Hippies"
-Those that will only buy the game if it's too difficult for them to pirate "Privateers"
-Those that will not buy the game, but will pirate it if able. "Pirates" (Note that this group is never "lost" revenue, and of these four groups, is second only to civilians in number.)

Thus, the two largest groups, Pirates and Civilians, are not affected by any level of DRM.
Of the remainder, as DRM increases, more and more privateers will stop buying the game, and fewer and fewer hippies will.

Let me take a moment to explain that few people are allways in one of these classes; only for a particular product will they fall into one or the other; further, it is possible to be both a Hippie and a Privateer, that is, pirate it if it's really easy or really restrictive, but there's a sweet-spot where they will buy it. This group could be called "Goldies", but they most likely act like a synthsys of Privateers and Hippies and may for this model be assumed to only fit within one or the other.

This creates a classical bell-curve of potential buyers once we remove Pirates and Civilians. Producers will get the most revenue (a better term to use, in this case, when talking about raw numbers sold. We can't make assumptions about the expendetures of larger DRM schemes, so we cannot assume Profit any changes) when they strike a balance between heavy and light DRM. The point where this ballance falls depends on the number of privateers and hippies, and where each one draws the line.

What we need then, is to collect demographic data, and find the percentages of each. Then we can say not only what we would like, but also what is most effective for companies- which is the only thing that will change minds.

EDIT: In response to Kogan: Excellent thoughts, Kogan. We are looking at different sides of the issue here. I hope that in the long term we get a more effective system. In the short term I think that companies can still be more successfull by finding a good balance of DRM, and that this point is definitely something less intense than what we see now.

@MrWiggles: Are you aiming that statement at me? I can't tell. Nonetheles, I certainly don't think IP is evil. I for one would fall in the Hippie category, as I do not pirate games, but I will refuse to buy overly-DRM'd products.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #26 on: April 29, 2009, 02:29:38 pm »

I didnt mean to come off as Anti Copy Right. ITs an important tool, just not how its being use.

Fair Use though important is vague as to what is and isn't. I can see it when presented but I can't give you a definition for it. I know that AMV are not a challenge to any one copy right. So forth.

Copy Right laws are there to help foster artist and protect their interest, however like all laws it is tenacious on the populace adherence, and this isn't a special qualifier for copy right.

I pirate games. However most of the games on my system that were gotten in a nefarious light are abandoned ware. 75 year copy right on that, is just plain silly. And an expired copy right doesn't disallow them to make money off of it.

I'm sure that even if copy right of the games on the various console virtual arcade were lapsed people would still by them.

As for media being cheaper, I think the one you could make an argument for is for music.

It not bad to be rich on your content. For video games, and speaking to the console swing up in price, to 60 bucks, with a national release it almost ensure that the production studio will make their investment back. Profit however is another issue. And let not forget production studio by back all unsold games after a year? and its up to stores to dispose of them on a matter they see fit. For most stores, this is a drastic price cut (5 bucks) and into a bargain bin.

Movie prices vary where you live for myself, it 6.25 and in SoCal its 11.50. Which makes the dollar to hour entreatment expensive, especially compare to video games, which can get down to less then a dollar an hour.

Anyway, I meant to convey that we aren't being priced gauged. Can it be cheaper? Sure. Wait six months after the release.
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Mr.Person

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2009, 11:49:28 pm »

I love how some people don't like copyrights for companies but are all for copyrights for individuals. What's the difference?

Wanna know the real bs of copyrights? Patents. Copyrights go for 100 years AFTER death in the U.S., other places are shorter. Patents? You got 20 years after filing. 3 years if it's a presciption drug. All your profit has to be made in that time. So what do you do? Raise prices. After all, if people want your product, they're gonna go to you. They don't care if it's 20 bucks or 30, if they GOTTA have it, they'll cough up the cash. Solution? Lower IP and copyright length limits and raise patent length limits, especially ones for drugs.

Wannas learn Fair Use? Actually read the Terms of Service liscense that pops up when you install a commercial game. Basically, only you can use the software on one computer for noncommercial uses (this is the most common liscense, photoshop liscense is obviously different.) All copies of the software are for backups ONLY. You cannot use copies on other computers, you cannot give out copies to friends, and you cannot copy and sell the program. You can only USE the software. Only the software maker, if copyrighted, can give copies out for sale or for free. That's the technical aspect. Practically, you can't copy the program and give it out to others. Since tracking down the copies you give to your friends is just silly, companies go after pirates.
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MrWiggles

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #28 on: April 30, 2009, 12:49:20 am »

Copy Right length vary on the media type, the one your speaking to are for novels.
For programs its seventy five years, no inclusion of the author life.

However Copy Rights and Patents, are for different items.

Patents are getting wonky, this is a combination due to meta patents getting based such as  'Business Plans', as well as simply being swamped from being under funded and not having proper expertise. There also the issue arriving with patenting discovery for genes. It a system showing its age, but not as worse as copy right is to the digital information age.


Patents are generally for created applications of machines. Such as the plow, a way to twist twine so forth. Or my favorite case is on barb wire. These for the lack of a better general term, machines are not intangible and can be used to to built upon to form better applications. If patent claims lasted for a long length of time, it could and probably would make progress to expensive for use for all the dues being paid.

An example would an extended patent on a simple machine, such as the ramp (okay, fine so sue me. Incline Plane! 8b ). These items are so common most are muted towards seeing them, but imagine the city paying due at installation of each ramp for handicapped. Hideously expensive. Or worse yet, the metal spring.

Essentially a patent can protect an idea and variations on ideas.

The general 20 year time limit (longer for others, CIA and the other letter head organization have hidden patents, once revealed a 70 year patent.) allows enough time to get the idea grounded, funded, and an infrastructure. For most things its about enough time. Medicine has a shorter time limit, as it seen more a general welfare thing. With the patent lapses, then the generic can be made allowing for more affordable healthcare.

Where as a Copy Right helps an artist retain control over something intangible and each item unique. The general idea are free, but the spefic use of the idea. A vampire that saves lives can't be copy righted but Urist McVampy the helpful vampire is. But this doesn't disallow the use of other Urist vampires.

A character or universe can be a person or company bread earner for their entire life. Where as the metal spring can't and shouldn't.

I agree that copy rights length should be of lengths in respect to its medium. Software copy rights of versions possible perhaps as short as five years. (This means though the DF copy right would be expired already, maybe it starts once dev. finish?).

Novels though, that a proper length. Novels can generate revenue well after the author life, and has no set expiration date. My favorite novel, is The Count of Monte Cristo and its a spry 163 years old. Yet its power and influence on those that read show no signs of wearing thin. For the author and his family a still possible source of revenue.

However the novel does not stop similar stories from being written, where as the patent of the metal spring prevent devices using it.
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Draco18s

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Re: Thank you again, Toady One!
« Reply #29 on: April 30, 2009, 03:37:18 pm »

In my experience:
Steam is a flawed but otherwise completely functional system.

I love Steam.  I dealt with StarDock once and hated it, don't even remember what game.  The only problem steam has is that if the Steam servers are down it's remarkably difficult to start a multiplayer game.
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