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Author Topic: 12 angry men.  (Read 3857 times)

Yanlin

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12 angry men.
« on: May 08, 2009, 12:44:50 pm »

So. Now that I know that when you tamper the jury, it's a reference. Not a grammar error not worth noting.

I recently found http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=1802597261513426685

However, the full movie is 96 minutes long.

Now I have no means what so ever to acquire this video. Buying online is impossible for me due to parental reasons. My parents are afraid of the internet. Literally.

Nothing short of piracy will get it for me. I don't want to go that far.

Can I get a run down of the particular scenes that the reference refers to?
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Servant Corps

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #1 on: May 08, 2009, 12:48:13 pm »

One jury member tried to sway the rest of the jury that the kid did not kill his father, by introducing plausible deniablity into the equation, and breaking the law by buying a knife that is very similar to the weapon the kid was alleged to have killed the father. He tried simulating the actual events, to introduce more plausiblity.

He started off as being the only person who voted Not Guilty, and he ended up convicing everyone to vote Not Guilty.
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #2 on: May 08, 2009, 12:57:22 pm »

It is a reference not to any specific scene, but to the entire movie, which depicts a jury's deliberations. At the start, 11 of the 12 jurors are prepared to send a young man to his death for murdering his father; 1 of them is unconvinced. A unanimous decision must be made either way. Over the course of the next hour and a half or so, that one man convinces the other 11 jurors to agree to a not guilty verdict. It's a pretty good (classic) movie about 12 strangers in a heated debate about matters of life and death, where all but the opening and exiting scenes are filmed in the jury room and its connected restroom.
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Aqizzar

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #3 on: May 08, 2009, 01:34:28 pm »

Do they not have video rental stores in Israel?  It's a classic dude, there's a copy of it around.

Everyone should see it - masterpiece of old fashioned film making.
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Servant Corps

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #4 on: May 08, 2009, 01:49:59 pm »

Jonathan S. Fox: Wait. I watched that movie, and I thought they agreed to the not guilty verdict because there is no evidence that the young man really did murder his father.

If they sentenced him "Not Guilty", even when they KNEW that the young man murdered his father...GAH!
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #5 on: May 08, 2009, 02:11:47 pm »

Jonathan S. Fox: Wait. I watched that movie, and I thought they agreed to the not guilty verdict because there is no evidence that the young man really did murder his father.

If they sentenced him "Not Guilty", even when they KNEW that the young man murdered his father...GAH!

Oh, they didn't KNOW he did it. The testimony of each witness has been brought into question, each piece of physical evidence has been re-examined, and they're no longer convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't him: there are no other suspects mentioned, the boy bought a knife that looked exactly like the murder weapon then lost it on the night of the murder, the boy presented an alibi about going to the movies to the police officer at the scene but was unable to even say what movies he saw or provide any witnesses to back him up, there was a motive for him to kill his father, and there are two witnesses giving strong testimony against him, including one that says she saw him in the act. But over the course of the deliberation, the jury questions the credibility of the two witnesses, finds reason to downplay the physical evidence, and generally decides that the evidence provided is insufficient to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the young man.

Without this tension, where the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of conviction, it wouldn't have been such a compelling and credible movie. If the average person would have thought the young man was innocent, they couldn't have started it out with 11 men voting to send him to the chair.
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Yanlin

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2009, 02:32:15 pm »

Do they not have video rental stores in Israel?  It's a classic dude, there's a copy of it around.

Everyone should see it - masterpiece of old fashioned film making.

The closest thing I could find was an automated machine that rents some horrible movies and porns.
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Servant Corps

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #7 on: May 08, 2009, 04:29:34 pm »

Jonathan S. Fox: Wait. I watched that movie, and I thought they agreed to the not guilty verdict because there is no evidence that the young man really did murder his father.

If they sentenced him "Not Guilty", even when they KNEW that the young man murdered his father...GAH!

Oh, they didn't KNOW he did it. The testimony of each witness has been brought into question, each piece of physical evidence has been re-examined, and they're no longer convinced beyond a reasonable doubt.

But that doesn't mean it wasn't him: there are no other suspects mentioned, the boy bought a knife that looked exactly like the murder weapon then lost it on the night of the murder, the boy presented an alibi about going to the movies to the police officer at the scene but was unable to even say what movies he saw or provide any witnesses to back him up, there was a motive for him to kill his father, and there are two witnesses giving strong testimony against him, including one that says she saw him in the act. But over the course of the deliberation, the jury questions the credibility of the two witnesses, finds reason to downplay the physical evidence, and generally decides that the evidence provided is insufficient to convince them beyond a reasonable doubt that it was the young man.

Without this tension, where the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of conviction, it wouldn't have been such a compelling and credible movie. If the average person would have thought the young man was innocent, they couldn't have started it out with 11 men voting to send him to the chair.

Oh.

So, justice was not served, if it is indeed very likely, altough not beyond a reasonable doubt, that the child did do the murder. Altough, if the child doesn't murder again, I guess it really doesn't matter that much. And under an L+ society, the child would likely be sent to life imprisonment with the possiblity of palore, rather than sent to the chair.
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Aqizzar

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2009, 04:35:14 pm »

It's hard to explain the dynamics if you haven't seen the movie.  "Not beyond reasonable doubt" doesn't mean they threw out a murder case because a T went uncrossed.  A lot of careful review and deliberation (and a McGuffin weapon) poke big holes in the charge.

Ultimately, there's no indication of whether the boy really was guilty or not, they just decide that they can't convict of a death sentence charge on the evidence.  Besides, the movie wasn't nearly so much about the case itself as the "twelve unnamed bickering guys in a room" character interaction.
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E. Albright

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #9 on: May 08, 2009, 04:53:34 pm »

Yanlin:

12 Angry Men

All 96 minutes, from the list of "related videos" in your link.  ;)
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #10 on: May 08, 2009, 04:56:08 pm »

I would say justice was served in the movie. Perfect justice doesn't exist, since perfect knowledge doesn't exist. Therefore, the integrity of the system of justice is only preserved by ensuring at great lengths that it doesn't punish innocent people.

As much as we might like to say "Well, he probably did it" and conclude he deserves punishment, it doesn't, and can't work that way. The boy's life is in the hands of the jury, and they can't have him killed or imprisoned over a crime they aren't sure he committed.

I say he probably did it, but that is the moral ambiguity of the jury's task. In a matter of life and death, with the power to kill a young man in the name of justice, the movie never actually says whether he actually did it or not. We only see the arguments presented for and against him during jury deliberations.
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mainiac

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 05:16:40 pm »

You thought he probably did it?  I thought that the evidence was practically non-existent.  Very little of the witnesses testimony implicated the suspect, what little implication there was is explained by the fact that the witnesses thought the suspect was guilty.  The physical evidence was non existent.  The suspect didn't have an ironclad alibi but we can hardly say that anyone without an ironclad alibi is guilty.

The impression that I got was that the public defender did his job really badly.  All the points brought up in jury deliberation should have already been brought up before.  The one guy who was supposed to be on the kid's side hadn't given him the support he was supposed to.  So the boy would have died without justification if it weren't for the fact that one of the jurors had the inkling that something was very wrong about the situation.
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Aqizzar

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 05:23:52 pm »

And so, even in the 1950's, people realized that Public Defenders rarely give a damn about the people they're called to support.  Let alone a swarthy inner-city kid accused of murder.  Strike one for the LCS!
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a1s

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2009, 05:39:43 pm »

<offtopic>
wow, this makes that episode of odd coupe (about how Oscar met Felix) that much funnier. Felix keeps objecting to the fact that nobody is following proper procedure, until they just all vote the accused guy innocent and go home. No details of the case whatsoever are mentioned in the show  ;D
</offtopic>
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: 12 angry men.
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2009, 07:14:03 pm »

You thought he probably did it?  I thought that the evidence was practically non-existent.  Very little of the witnesses testimony implicated the suspect, what little implication there was is explained by the fact that the witnesses thought the suspect was guilty.  The physical evidence was non existent.  The suspect didn't have an ironclad alibi but we can hardly say that anyone without an ironclad alibi is guilty.

The physical evidence is that he purchased a knife with an unusual decorative handle just days prior, and then coincidentally lost the knife the exact same day that an identical knife with that same decorative handle was used to murder his father. The jurors demonstrate that it's plausible by finding another knife like that for sale in his neighborhood, showing it's not unique, but that's it. While plausible, this remains a very weak defense.

Two witnesses gave compelling testimony against him. The woman reports seeing the boy physically stabbing his father with a knife, in a manner consistent with the autopsy report. Their address to the woman was to point out she was in bed and normally wears glasses, and so maybe she didn't see what she thought she did because her glasses were probably off. That's extremely conditional, and hardly destroys her testimony. For example, it's already known that she doesn't always wear glasses in public. While they argued she may just be self-conscious about it, and trying to hide this from the court, it's also perfectly likely she was farsighted and had plenty good vision for seeing across the street -- or providing testimony in court. Since the jury simply didn't know, they decided reasonable doubt was in place here, but by no means did they actually show she was mistaken.

The second witness, the man downstairs, reports seeing him run out of the apartment, after he screamed he was going to kill his father, all at the time of death. The jurors suggest he may have perjured himself because he wanted recognition and importance, because the oldest man on the jury projects his own feelings onto the guy. Wow, talk about speculative! They support this by theorizing it may have been physically impossible for him to hear what he said he heard or see what he said he saw. Without a proper cross-examination, and the ability of the man to defend his own testimony, that argument only casts doubt on his testimony, it doesn't render it insignificant. The jury would no more convict him of perjury than they convicted the boy of murder.

The boy's alibi is not just weak, but the police interview lends credibility to the idea that it was fabricated. He was unable to recall what movie he just watched just an hour later -- that's very hard to believe. The experiment in the jury room where a juror wasn't able to recall all of the details of his own engagement earlier in the week didn't even come close to amount of memory loss the boy appeared to have. The argument in his defense that he was in shock at being interviewed in his apartment about his father's death, which is indeed plausible, but once again, not sufficiently persuasive to do more than preserve reasonable doubt that he might be telling the truth.

With two witnesses against him, including one that says she saw him actually stabbing his father, and the weapon left on the scene being identical to one he purchased days earlier and couldn't produce after the murder, and an alibi that's so shaky that it comes across as a lie, the evidence is very substantial.

I completely agree that the public defender was terrible. With good representation, he may have been able to convince the jury more handily that he was innocent. But he didn't have that. Fortunately, strong defense arguments came out during jury deliberations, where the prosecution and witnesses were unable to respond to these speculative concerns. Maybe the prosecution wouldn't be able to answer these concerns well, which would likely be the case if the boy really was innocent -- but there's no justification for assuming that, outside the automatic presumption of innocence. It's entirely possible that the fact that the prosecution witnesses weren't able to respond to these questions was the only thing that saved the boy.

The jury made the right decision, because in pointing out significant arguments that were not brought up during the trial, they weakened the prosecution's case against the boy just enough to decide there was reasonable doubt. But they didn't know he was innocent. Even the initial juror that objected to sending him to the chair didn't actually think he was innocent, he just wasn't convinced. To really decide this case, they would have needed to be able to investigate their concerns more fully.
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