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Author Topic: AI War  (Read 6178 times)

x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2009, 02:58:45 pm »

Kudos x4000 for coming back and checking the thread then replying, wasn't sure whether you'd be the type of person to make a post then never come back. I'm downloading the demo now so lets see how this turns out; If it wasn't for you linking that blog I might not have tried this since I'm in the middle of exams but your description of the AI has me intrigued.

Hey, no worries, I like to try to keep on top of things.  Seems like I'm involved in about a jillion discussions at the moment on a dozen forums, but it's worth it to connect with players and hear their feedback.  Lots of new features and tweaks based on player suggestions already (the biggest trove so far has been the Quarter To Three forums in that regard), so if you have ideas of feedback feel free to post them here or on the Arcen Games forum.

Glad it looks interesting to you!  Don't mess up your exams, though. ;)  But seriously, thanks for your interest.
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x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2009, 02:59:27 pm »

I emailed some feedback.

I spent 2-3 hours on it, which is more than I can say for any other RTS in the last four years or so.  I might poke at it a little more after work today.

Hey there, I saw your email, thanks for that.  I'll send you a detailed reply in a bit. :)  Thanks for trying it out!
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Sowelu

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Re: AI War
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2009, 08:47:16 pm »

Firing it up again to give a real campaign a (brief) shot.

Oh yeah.  Needs to be mentioned:  This game has some of the best music I've heard in any Western game.  Beautiful, beautiful string music and deeply moving.
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2009, 08:50:21 pm »

Firing it up again to give a real campaign a (brief) shot.

Oh yeah.  Needs to be mentioned:  This game has some of the best music I've heard in any Western game.  Beautiful, beautiful string music and deeply moving.

I'll pass your comments on to our composer. :)  I know he'll be tickled, he hasn't gotten as much recognition as I think he deserves.  Hopefully at the IGF next year.
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Micro102

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Re: AI War
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2009, 12:24:08 am »

nice Ai might be the copying of other tactics, length away from enemy for certian unit to withdraw, triangulation of super weapons, build order....just have all these things listed and have the AI copy and/or try to beat them. the more oppenents the Ai fights, the more accurate its results will be.

may require degree in statistics, physics, computer programming, and 99 other gaming related degrees.... found only at Yal.... for a straight A+ student
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Sowelu

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Re: AI War
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2009, 05:12:27 pm »

If you play the trial, make sure you play the campaign tutorial after you're done with the other tutorials.  It lasts about two or three hours, and plays through to the end of the campaign.  If you go right into a normal campaign, the trial limits it to one hour long--which, in the much bigger universe of the non-trial version, means you're barely going to get into the meat of the game.

Long game.
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

Idiom

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Re: AI War
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2009, 04:00:46 pm »

Played through the demo. This has serious potential. Haven't seen AI like this since TBS games.
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x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2009, 05:21:03 pm »

Awesome, glad to hear it!
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Servant Corps

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Re: AI War
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2009, 06:37:24 pm »

If you play the trial, make sure you play the campaign tutorial after you're done with the other tutorials.  It lasts about two or three hours, and plays through to the end of the campaign.  If you go right into a normal campaign, the trial limits it to one hour long--which, in the much bigger universe of the non-trial version, means you're barely going to get into the meat of the game.

Long game.

Wait, wait, wait. Once you play the free, legal 2-3 hour long campagin tutorial, you beat the game fully?

That's it. I need to download this now!
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2009, 07:04:03 pm »

If you play the trial, make sure you play the campaign tutorial after you're done with the other tutorials.  It lasts about two or three hours, and plays through to the end of the campaign.  If you go right into a normal campaign, the trial limits it to one hour long--which, in the much bigger universe of the non-trial version, means you're barely going to get into the meat of the game.

Long game.

Wait, wait, wait. Once you play the free, legal 2-3 hour long campagin tutorial, you beat the game fully?

That's it. I need to download this now!

Ha.  To clarify, "it plays through to the end of the tutorial campaign."  In other words, it doesn't cut you off at an hour, despite the fact that the tutorial campaign takes 3 hours.  Average campaigns in the game (on 80 planet maps) take around 10-12 hours each.  All campaigns are procedurally generated, there's no scripted content -- so there's around 16 billion possible campaigns for a single player, assuming you only play 80-planet maps.

To play against all of the 26 AI types, and see all of the current content in the game, would take a minimum of around 120 hours, but most likely would take longer.  And, we're adding new stuff on top of that on a periodic basis (right now weekly, but will change to biweekly in July) as free DLC.  There's a lot to see here; unlike many indie games, there's nothing brief about AI War. ;)
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Servant Corps

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Re: AI War
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2009, 07:13:06 pm »

While that may be true, I lose interest rather quickly. If I can destroy the AI in a campagin, it feels as if I won the game, even though technically I haven't even scratched the surface and fully explore what the game can offer.

The bad news however is that by offering something like this, you create a disincentive to actually buy the game. If you play the tutorial, and you win the tutorial, you feel happy and glad and have lots of fun. Why pay for the full game, when it feels as if you have already won?

This is an article about a indie game known as Oasis, which offered a tutorial campagin too, which does allow the player to experience the game. The thing you offer seems to be the same as Oasis, and this leads to the problem of people not paying for the full game since they are sastified with the demo.
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I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2009, 08:48:18 pm »

While that may be true, I lose interest rather quickly. If I can destroy the AI in a campagin, it feels as if I won the game, even though technically I haven't even scratched the surface and fully explore what the game can offer.

The bad news however is that by offering something like this, you create a disincentive to actually buy the game. If you play the tutorial, and you win the tutorial, you feel happy and glad and have lots of fun. Why pay for the full game, when it feels as if you have already won?

This is an article about a indie game known as Oasis, which offered a tutorial campagin too, which does allow the player to experience the game. The thing you offer seems to be the same as Oasis, and this leads to the problem of people not paying for the full game since they are sastified with the demo.

If you feel like you've completed a game just after completing a simulated campaign in the tutorial (where the AI is not even able to act fully, and you are guided through all the strategy), I don't really know how to respond to that.  Our demo so far seems to have an above-average conversion rate to paying customers, so I think we're doing something right.

Even if it was a full campaign (which it is not), that would be like winning one skirmish in, say Supreme Commander, and then feeling like that was it for you with that game.  If that's the way you feel, then that's the way you feel, but I think there's a disconnect here.  When I say "campaign," it's like the longest skirmish you've ever played, it's not like something with story or whatever.  You are set up with a full galaxy and lots of sub-objectives to optionally pursue while you are going after your main objective.  Games like this are meant to be played more than once by nature, that's just how (non-scripted-campaigns) of RTS games are.  If you're thinking of this as being in any way analogous to a scripted-campaign from Warcraft, or SupCom, or Rise of Nations or so, I think that may be the disconnect.  Apples and oranges.

I'm surprised that you'd give advice on why the demo is ineffective without even looking at it, but thanks for taking a look at the game.  The comparison to Oasis is interesting, and I like Daniel Cook's blog, too, but a tutorial is not the same thing as a real game in my opinion.  By the end of the tutorial you are finally, mostly, ready to try the real game.  And, like any good demo, we limit that severely -- in this case, around 1/10 of a real single campaign, similar to having just the first level of an FPS game or something.

Without the tutorial as we have it, there's no way for people to see all the interesting strategic opportunities and differences that are in this game as compared to other games.  Most people who have bought it and who have then talked to me have in fact mentioned the intermediate tutorial as being one of the big deciding factors ("I was halfway through it and knew I had to get it," or "I finished that tutorial and then played a little of a real campaign and then knew I wanted to get it," etc).  Anyway, thanks for the advice, and for taking a look at the game.
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Sowelu

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Re: AI War
« Reply #27 on: June 08, 2009, 01:58:07 pm »

Yeah, the tutorial does not give you that feeling of completion you get from the full version.  For one thing, you don't unlock hardly any of the techs.  Ooh, how big of a range do those turrets have?  How powerful are the raid starships and flagships?  You don't know!

Also, the harder AIs can really start to wipe the floor with you...

(yeah, I ended up buying it, but haven't had much time to play yet)
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Some things were made for one thing, for me / that one thing is the sea~
His servers are going to be powered by goat blood and moonlight.
Oh, a biomass/24 hour solar facility. How green!

x4000

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Re: AI War
« Reply #28 on: June 08, 2009, 02:17:54 pm »

Yeah, the tutorial does not give you that feeling of completion you get from the full version.  For one thing, you don't unlock hardly any of the techs.  Ooh, how big of a range do those turrets have?  How powerful are the raid starships and flagships?  You don't know!

Ah, good to hear, since you played the demo quite extensively (6+ hours spent in the demo, I believe?).

Quote from: Sowelu link=topic=36651.msg591104#msg591104
(yeah, I ended up buying it, but haven't had much time to play yet)

Thanks very much for your support!  I hadn't expected to convert a non-RTS fan like you. ;)  Some of your suggestions have made it into this week's prereleases and will be in this week's release of 1.005.  The rest are still on my (rather huge) list from recent player feedback, and will be in the next few weeks' DLC releases.
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