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[Antagonist]

In an effort to come up with more 'fair' ways to reduce the grind, I offer you the following:

Skill Synergy is two skills that are interrelated.  Raising one, gives you a slight raise of the other.  Prime candidates are:

Persuasion and Seduction (perhaps also psychology)
Martial Arts and Dodge
Melee weapons
Ranged weapons
Disguise and Stealth
Street Sense and Theft

Discuss

[Yanlin]

So basically, instead of raising one skill, you raise two.

[Antagonist]

Basically, but you raise the primary skill the full amount, and secondary skill a percentage of that.
You can raise your rifle skill by using a shotgun basically, but you wont get the full benefit and shotgun skill will raise much faster.

[Rezan]

The intelligence stat could determine what percentage/chance you have of learning more than one skill at a time.

[Yanlin]

I know this mechanic. It's actually quite widespread.

But honestly, if you think firing a shotgun is ANYTHING like firing a rifle...

[Rezan]

Then you've been in a guerilla battle situation, and know that the two weapons are still "point, press trigger".

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, they are vaguely similar at the kind of range the LCS fire at (never more than a few metres).  Point, pull trigger, reload, rinse, repeat.  That said, you could probably never become an expert at rifles just for firing a shotgun, so perhaps synergy could stop at a certain level (so you no longer get rifle skill for firing a shotgun at, say, half of your max for it).

[narskie]

I definitely like this idea, especially since in a small way it already exists.  Like how just using persuasion on someone with a high science skill raises the persuaders science skill.  Although I do think psychology should remain a skill only raised by engaging in "enhanced liberalism" and being taught.  It's too much of a game winning skill to be raised by speeches or dates. 

[E. Albright]

I find the principle agreeable, but would quibble some of the pairings. I'm not sure I'd tie Theft to Streetwise, specifically. Theft seems like it would go better with Stealth, and I'd be tempted to pair Disguise with Streetwise.

Disguise and Stealth have blurry boundaries, but generally my impression was that Stealth was about not being seen (and/or Not Being Seen, though that incorporates Dodge too  ), whereas Disguise was about not being noticed. Avoiding observation versus blending in. This fits well with the two other skills - Streetwise is for avoiding getting accosted by police when out doing various illegalities, and Theft is about not raising an alarm when performing alarming actions.

Mind you, if we make the relationships unidirectional instead of bidirectional by default, this becomes much tidier. Theft <- Stealth <-> Disguise -> Streetwise. It might also help if Theft had a more generalized name (Direct Action?), but that's another matter. Mostly.

[e] Added link to help justify my pedantry.

[E. Albright]

Although I do think psychology should remain a skill only raised by engaging in "enhanced liberalism" and being taught.  It's too much of a game winning skill to be raised by speeches or dates. 

I suppose (to continue my previous thought) one could make Psychology help boost Persuasion and Seduction, but not vice versa.

Although, given how one improves Psychology in this game, it's rather scary to think of that aiding with Persuasion. To say nothing of it making one more Seductive...

[Jetman123]

Hey, at least firing a shotgun gives you a basic idea of how to aim and steady your hands, as well as how to use iron sights (Yes, I'm aware iron sights on shotguns are not the same as on rifles and sometimes don't even have a rear sight). The same with a pistol.

The same concepts apply, even if the guns are different. Learning how to use a pistol means you also, when a rifle is put into your hands, will know how to use those iron sights.

I agree that it shouldn't carry past very much. But it should give you a bit of a skill bonus.

[JohnieRWilkins]

I know this mechanic. It's actually quite widespread.

But honestly, if you think firing a shotgun is ANYTHING like firing a rifle...

Please, tell us more.

[Yanlin]

I know this mechanic. It's actually quite widespread.

But honestly, if you think firing a shotgun is ANYTHING like firing a rifle...

Please, tell us more.

Apart from pulling the trigger to fire... NOTHING is similar about it.

A shotgun is designed to shoot either a pellet shot or a slug. A slug just being a big bullet.

Shotguns are unrifled. Since all shotguns are pellet shot shotguns in the game... This means that all the mechanics are different. A shotgun spreads a large number of pellets over a weak point for massive damage. Works best on giant enemy crabs.

But jokes aside, here's the real difference as far as LCD close quarters battle is concerned.

A shotgun has MASSIVE recoil that's also different from rifles. To aim a shotgun you need to aim slightly differently. Shotguns reload VERY differently. Shotguns need to be cocked if they are not fully automatic. In the time it takes to do a shotgun shot and recock for the next one, you could let off half a mag on any automatic or semi automatic rifle.

A shotgun demonstrates Newton's 3rd law of motion far more vigorously than a rifle. To properly take the recoil of a shotgun you need different techniques than to take the recoil of an assault rifle. Not to mention the enemy himself will be quite staggered when hit even if wearing a bullet proof vest. The force imparted is massive.

Now a rifle, is far easier to shoot. The recoil is far weaker than a shotgun. Even in a full burst. But to aim, you must properly align your ironsights to do an aimed shot or refine your dexterity enough to intuitively aim it straight forward. It's not a really hard skill to gain.



Okay, if you really look at it at the core level, firing a shotgun is much like firing a rifle... It just requires a slightly different way to handle the recoil and actually reload the gun chamber.

[E. Albright]

Another option for skill bleedover would be to allow related skills to impart associative expertise, but only up to a fix, low cap. Knowing how to do the one thing will give you a basic idea of how to do the other, but if you want to get *good* with it, you need to specialize. E.g., every 2-4 skill gains in Rifle gives 1 in Shotguns, capped at, say, level 2.

Alternately, diminishing returns. To continue the previous example, Rifles would have a 2-1 gain ratio until Shotguns hit level 1, 3-1 until level 2, 4-1 until level 3, etc. I'm tempted to say this model would lean towards associative training only working if the trained skill is higher than the parasitic one; i.e., the general principles that training/fighting with the shotgun would teach are ones that have already been learned with a Rifle; until it has a higher level, you're just learning the shotgun-specific techniques.

The more we talk about this, the more this feels like we're drifting back towards the old discussion of broad-vs-narrow weapon skills (e.g., Melee/Small Arms/Support Weapons/etc. vs. Axe/Rifle/Flamethrower/etc.). That's not perforce a bad thing, though.

[JohnieRWilkins]

Shotguns are unrifled.

[smug] Yea you're right the rifled shotguns don't exist. [/smug]

Since all shotguns are pellet shot shotguns in the game... This means that all the mechanics are different. A shotgun spreads a large number of pellets over a weak point for massive damage. Works best on giant enemy crabs.

But jokes aside, here's the real difference as far as LCD close quarters battle is concerned.

A shotgun has MASSIVE recoil that's also different from rifles. To aim a shotgun you need to aim slightly differently. Shotguns reload VERY differently. Shotguns need to be cocked if they are not fully automatic. In the time it takes to do a shotgun shot and recock for the next one, you could let off half a mag on any automatic or semi automatic rifle.

A shotgun demonstrates Newton's 3rd law of motion far more vigorously than a rifle. To properly take the recoil of a shotgun you need different techniques than to take the recoil of an assault rifle. Not to mention the enemy himself will be quite staggered when hit even if wearing a bullet proof vest. The force imparted is massive.

Now a rifle, is far easier to shoot. The recoil is far weaker than a shotgun. Even in a full burst. But to aim, you must properly align your ironsights to do an aimed shot or refine your dexterity enough to intuitively aim it straight forward. It's not a really hard skill to gain.



Okay, if you really look at it at the core level, firing a shotgun is much like firing a rifle... It just requires a slightly different way to handle the recoil and actually reload the gun chamber.

Hey, I fired a mosin at a hundred yard target once. Then I fired a rifled slug out of a[n unrifled] shotgun at the same target using the built-in bead sights. I didn't notice any difference at all.

If you manage to fire a pistol without looking like a moron, you'll know how to fire an assault rifle. If you know how to fire an assault rifle you'll know how to fire a battle rifle. If you know how to shoot a battle rifle and you find a shotgun for the first time, you'll know how to fire the shotgun.