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Author Topic: Skill Synergy  (Read 6814 times)

Yanlin

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #15 on: July 28, 2009, 08:01:26 am »

Shotguns are unrifled.
[smug] Yea you're right the rifled shotguns don't exist. [/smug]

Yes, I am right. Because a rifled shotgun isn't a shotgun. It's a rifle.
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Rezan

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #16 on: July 28, 2009, 08:53:09 am »

Friends of mine who have used various rifles and shotguns tell me that there is only a small difference in recoil (note, I have fired both rifles and shotguns, just not enough to come to a proper conclusion by my own account). Shotguns are "in general" a little stronger when it comes to that, but it's nothing that matters much. I've used shotguns myself, and I don't feel the recoil is all that bad. The only time I really felt the recoil was when I used a very small shotgun with low weight. That hurt like a bitch - but only because it was the first shotgun I used, and I didn't close the gap between my shoulder and the buttstock of the shotgun.

In my country, most normal people have both a shotgun and a rifle. I've asked around, and no one claims shotguns have "far worse recoil". I question whether you have ever fired a shotgun at all - not to mention a rifle.

It also GREATLY depends on the calibre of bullet, or what gauge of shotgun shell you're using. But I guess you didn't look too much into that. And obviously a burst fire from a rifle would be felt fairly well (again, depending on ammunition type).

The Norwegian military's former assault rifle was 7.62 calibre, and friends of mine who have been in the military say it packs more of a punch than any shotgun they've used.

Usually the term "rifled shotgun" applies to a shotgun used to fire slugs, as they require ballistic efficiency to be of any use - so they exist, though one might question the definitions of shotguns and rifles in this particular.

Personally I find a shotgun to be much easier to use at relatively close range than a rifle. A rifle requires a precise shot and a steady hand, whereas a shotgun knocks most people down within 40 metres, and you don't even have to hit them dead on. Hell, the most efficient close combat weapon ever is probably the USAS-12 or its successors. No recoil, fully automatic. Kills anything you aim it at.

Anyway, like I said, why can't intelligence decide how well you can "link" the weapons together? Maybe it could decide the cap? Half of intelligence could be the cap of which one weapon "synergizes" with others which have some similarities.
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JohnieRWilkins

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #17 on: July 28, 2009, 01:58:51 pm »

Yes, I am right. Because a rifled shotgun isn't a shotgun. It's a rifle.
Oh. Then the two gunstore owners who I talked to about a bolt action shotgun with a rifled barrel I wanted to transfer are wrong and don't know what they are talking about. So is that guy who posted on GunBroker. So is SA's TFR. I'm sorry, you're the expert on classifying shotguns though, I should listen to you.

e: Rezan thinks the same thing so yea, Yanlin is an armchair commando.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2009, 02:01:59 pm by JohnieRWilkins »
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Yanlin

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #18 on: July 28, 2009, 02:20:12 pm »

Yes, I am right. Because a rifled shotgun isn't a shotgun. It's a rifle.
Oh. Then the two gunstore owners who I talked to about a bolt action shotgun with a rifled barrel I wanted to transfer are wrong and don't know what they are talking about. So is that guy who posted on GunBroker. So is SA's TFR. I'm sorry, you're the expert on classifying shotguns though, I should listen to you.

e: Rezan thinks the same thing so yea, Yanlin is an armchair commando.

I'll admit to never having fired a gun. Just using some physics. I appreciate your input and retract my statement.

HOWEVER... By defintion... A rifled shotgun that fires slugs is... Just a big ass rifle. If it fires pellets... Well the rifling isn't doing much good for that!
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Rezan

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #19 on: July 28, 2009, 05:49:03 pm »

That's like saying a rifled cannon is also a big-ass rifle. You know, like a tank cannon.
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Yanlin

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #20 on: July 28, 2009, 06:30:43 pm »

That's like saying a rifled cannon is also a big-ass rifle. You know, like a tank cannon.

Not really, no.

Well... Yes. It's a big ass rifle. Literally. The word "Rifle" means rifled barrel.

Of course there comes a point where one must admit that you're no longer firing bullets.

But still, rifled shotgun is an oxymoron.
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HAMMERMILL

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #21 on: July 28, 2009, 07:48:03 pm »

A rifled shotgun is not a rifle... its a slug gun. At least thats what manufacturers call them to avoid the whole mindbinding effect that comes from thinking about if rifled shotguns are rifles or shotguns or not

Anyways, I like this idea because it just makes sense. Once you grasp the basics of marksmanship you can apply them to just about every firearm around.

Maybe the formula could go something like... Pistol skill= (pistol skill) + ((rifle+smg+shotgun skills) / 3) or something to that effect. I don't know how much of a headache that would be to program or anything.

Could apply the changes to the melee weapon skills and a few other skills with reciprocal qualities.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #22 on: July 28, 2009, 08:04:25 pm »

According to the USC (18 USC 921) a shotgun is -

Quote
a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

So no real reason why one can't have a rifled sight and still be called a shotgun.
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E. Albright

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #23 on: July 28, 2009, 08:09:02 pm »

Literally. The word "Rifle" means rifled barrel.

[...]

But still, rifled shotgun is an oxymoron.

No. You're being needlessly pedantic. Etymology does not, and should not, trump usage. In modern usage, a shotgun is a long-barreled firearm used to fire shotgun shells. It can have a smooth bore, or a rifled one. The latter does blur the line with rifles (those being long, rifled-bore firearms used to fire rifle cartridges), but they are viewed as comprising distinct classes based on ammunition fired moreso than barrel design.
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HAMMERMILL

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #24 on: July 28, 2009, 08:10:26 pm »

According to the USC (18 USC 921) a shotgun is -

Quote
a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

So no real reason why one can't have a rifled sight and still be called a shotgun.

But it says right there "smooth bore". Having a rifled bore would make it no longer a shotgun.
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E. Albright

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #25 on: July 28, 2009, 08:14:05 pm »

According to the USC (18 USC 921) a shotgun is -

Quote
a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger.

So no real reason why one can't have a rifled sight and still be called a shotgun.

Well, even should we treat the US Code as authoritative, that definition would rule out rifled shotguns as being shotguns, as it specifies smooth bores. However, the ATF qualified that by concluding firearms designed to fire shotgun shells would still be shotguns if they had their barrels swapped to fire shotgun slugs.
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E. Albright

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #26 on: July 28, 2009, 08:28:58 pm »

Anyways, I like this idea because it just makes sense. Once you grasp the basics of marksmanship you can apply them to just about every firearm around.

Maybe the formula could go something like... Pistol skill= (pistol skill) + ((rifle+smg+shotgun skills) / 3) or something to that effect. I don't know how much of a headache that would be to program or anything.

As far as weapon skills go, this logic would suggest moving towards generalized combat skills as have been discussed in the past. I.e., Melee, Handguns, Long Guns, with possible specialized skills like, say, Autofire and Marksmanship to round out major differences between weapon types and usages. It mostly comes down to how much abstraction is desired.
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Antagonist

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #27 on: July 29, 2009, 04:37:13 am »

I like the discussion, this talk has cleared up some questions I had about the similarity of handling different guns for me, but I'd like to hear about the balance of the Martial Arts and Dodge synergy.

Currently, the only way to raise Dodge is being shot at, kinda... a suicidal approach to raising that skill.  By synergy with Martial Arts you can raise it to some point (cap at a % of synergized skill or something as suggested), which will give you SOME dodge, just not godly amounts.

But then again, I'm trying to reduce grind.  Adding that synergy will garuntee that people will train martial arts as well as whatever their primary weapon skill will be, and that adds more training needed for 'perfect' soldiers... I dunno.

What I would like to reduce grind is more skills that can be trained outside infiltration.  Making that 'fair' and non-exploitable is the problem.  Some skills, esp the best ones, need to be 'earned'.
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Yanlin

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #28 on: July 29, 2009, 01:18:17 pm »

On the topic of rifled shotguns...

It's the same reason why a tank without tracks is not a tank.

It's just useless etymology and terminology. (Fancywordology.)

Hell the entire word "Shot gun" says that you fire shots. But as we learned, taking the name literally has horrible consequences.
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Ciarog

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Re: Skill Synergy
« Reply #29 on: August 01, 2009, 06:02:21 pm »

My revolver has rifling in the barrel, and with the proper cylinder I can use it to fire bullets containing ratshot[1].
 
Is my revolver then a rifle or a shotgun?

There's more to guns than the just the manner in which it pushes projectiles down the barrel. To be fair to Yanlin[2], however, even some professional shooters would opine that a shotgun that has either been built or modified with a rifled barrel is no longer a true shotgun, and the phrase "rifled shotgun" should either not be used at all or only used to refer to the weapon's origins. Similar to the argument as to wether or not a musket with rifling or smokeless powder capability is still a musket.

As for transferring  skills, I'd say a firearm's action is more important than its recoil. I grew up firing breach-loading shotguns and lever/bolt-action rifles; as I got older it wasn't as difficult to adjust from .22 to .270 as it was to learn how to shoot .22 automatic rifles, and this wasn't as difficult as learning my way around repeating shotguns. Going from revolvers to automatic pistols was probably the hardest; I can just about skeet-shoot with my Heritage Arms but I still can't hit broad side of a barn with a Glock. But I'm just one casual shooter, everyone's going to have different experiences.

1. Opinions are divided as to wether or not this is a good idea. I don't think it's dangerous per se, but I wouldn't use ratshot in any rifled weapon where I have any high concern with the rifling.

2. Yanlin, ain't you Isreali? I thought all men in Isreal were required to have basic weapons training as a matter of national defense.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 06:03:53 pm by Ciarog »
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