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Author Topic: Health Care vs Relationships.  (Read 7630 times)

Timst

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Health Care vs Relationships.
« on: July 27, 2009, 05:30:57 am »

Well, I had a wounded hunter who was stranded outside the base, with both arms mangled, and who was, of course, immobilized (I guess that too needs to be changed).
He stood there for months, because no one would recover him, and when dwarves tried to initiate a “recover wounded” action, they will stop before the end to get something to eat or drink.
By the end, the poor hunter was starving some meters away from the entrance of the fortress, when all of a sudden, some guy come, grabbed him, brought him to a bed, then feed him and brought him water. I was like "huh, impressive, the other dwarves seldom bothered to bring him water, and this guy took completely care of it, guess it is in his personality". So I checked the personality traits of the rescuer, and there was nothing, except "He occasionally overindulges". So I thought "oh, maybe it's his friend or something". And I checked the relationship screen: They don't even know themselves.

I mean, doesn't it seems pretty rude? A fellow dwarf go out of his work to rescue you, carry you to the fortress, brought you food and water, and you don't even consider it a passing acquaintance? Err...

Suggestion #1: I think that rescued people should show a bit of thankfulness to their rescuers. Maybe this can be the beginning of a relationship: this can lead to nice situations when a rescuer and a rescued became best friend or fall in love with each other. With the future doctors / physicist / etc. jobs, maybe that wounded dwarves will show thankfulness for the doctor who treated them once they recover, or the family of dwarf "killed" by an incompetent surgeon will all have a grudge for the doctor.

And let's not forget that my hunter was stranded for months in the wilderness, wounded, sometimes starving or dehydrated, and his friends never visited him. Right now, only pets show loyalty to their owner when they are in that kind of desperate situation.

Suggestion #2: The friends of a wounded dwarf should visit him, even if he's still in the wilderness. When he's in a hospital bed, they could bring him the kind of food he likes or little owned trinkets as presents, also.
Suggestion #3: Dwarves should be more likely to stop their work to help their friends than to help totally unknown dwarves. Lovers and husbands / wives would even more endeavor to help their other half. Grudges, of course, should be less likely to help the dwarve they don't like.
Dwarves committed in strong relationships (Lovers, close friends..) will give water/food or rescue even if the "Health Care" job is deactivated, or if they're really risk-taker, disobey a "Everyone inside" (or the future burrow limitations) to protect their loved one, which can lead to interesting Antigone-like scenarios.

And talk about the previous dwarves that begun to help it, then aborted the job because they were a little thirsty or hungry while the wounded person was starving to death. Just imagine that: there was a car accident, the rescues are on the way, and suddenly the ambulance driver thinks "hm, it'll be nice to have a slice of pizza, I'll just stop by this Pizza Hut and eat a bit". And after that, he'll return to his hospital and act as if nothing happened.

Suggestion #4: Dwarves should concentrate on fulfilling the "Recover wounded", "Give water" or "Give food" jobs. They should tolerate (to an extent determined by their personality) their own hunger, thirst or drowsiness. And by the way, they should fear less the wild animals and take more risk, because now it's just ridiculous "OMG IT'S A MARMOT GET IN THE WAGON". The amount of risk taken would be determined by the personality of the rescuer, and by the relation that bound them together: A dwarf will not rush past a goblin squad to help a stranger, but he probably will to save his girlfriend.

Suggestion #5: Even if they have to interrupt their job, they'll resume it as soon as they have finished to eat, drink or sleep, unless another dwarf could take care of it in the meantime. Actually, it could be pretty nice that they wait before another dwarf is available before going to eat/drink/sleep, because theses actions last quite a moment.

Suggestion #6: Aborting a health care mission could damage the relationship between the wounded and helper. Friend which does not visit their wounded pals will also risk the weakening of their bounds with the patient, except if they have a good reason to do so (military service, jail etc.).

Finally, something I thought off when reading discussion about doctors :

Suggestion #7 : Surgeon / Physicist should be unable to operate on their family member (and maybe close friends as well), OR some of they will want to be the only one to heal their friends or offspring, discharging other medics from this task.


I think that there is a lot of space to make the Health Care more human, after all we're talking about the life of a dwarf, they should at the very least consider their savior differently afterward.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2009, 09:12:22 am by Timst »
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Pilsu

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2009, 06:58:52 am »

Dwarves bound by a sense of duty should help their grudges whereas others would rather leave them to die in the wilderness

How would a friend psychically know his pal is in danger? Or his girlfriend for that matter? It'd quickly get irritating if dwarves started ignoring stay inside commands just because they can somehow tell their pal fell in battle. Randomly rushing into the wilderness to hand their injured Hunter friend some trinket is pretty silly too. Hunters that are injured shouldn't be recovered automatically unless they have a hunting party to help them. Otherwise it's time to send a search party into the fog of war

tsen

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #2 on: July 27, 2009, 07:43:26 am »

Dwarf neurons display quantum entanglement. Duh.
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Timst

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2009, 08:57:43 am »

Quote
How would a friend psychically know his pal is in danger? Or his girlfriend for that matter?

With the same mystic sense that allow them to detect that someone dropped a sock at the other end of the map, or that allow goblin to immediately detect that a door to the fortress has been unlocked 50 m under their feet, I guess.

Quote
It'd quickly get irritating if dwarves started ignoring stay inside commands just because they can somehow tell their pal fell in battle.

Don't worry, everyone won't do that. Only the most reckless dwarves will risk their life to help their loved one, and even then, they will try to be cautious, not directly rushing through a squad of gobelin pikemen without seeing them. How many dwarf has the "Is a risk-taker and a thrill-seeker" trait and also has a girlfriend ? Not many, I tell you.

Quote
Randomly rushing into the wilderness to hand their injured Hunter friend some trinket is pretty silly too.

Read again, they will only do that once he's in a hospital. But that a guy will come all the way from the fortress to see his crippled best friend doesn't seems too silly, assuming he doesn't do it too often.

After that the rescue party idea is pretty good, but sometimes the injured dwarf (which just have a broken arm that somehow prevent him to walk) is just several tiles away from the entrance. And a rescue party mean a group of dwarves mobilized to rescue only one, even when the player can see that there's no obvious danger between the victim and the fortress.

Granite26

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #4 on: July 27, 2009, 09:07:04 am »

I like your ideas.  I imagine most of them are an eventually thing, but some of them could work really well even now.

Pilsu

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #5 on: July 27, 2009, 09:19:54 am »

That's the thing, if personality makes them risk their lives saving the gal, they should have to know she's in trouble. Telepathy that makes dwarves break game mechanics put in place to prevent exactly this kind of thing will just be irritating

Friends visiting their injured pals in the wilderness without bringing them back seems silly. I had no reason to believe these visits wouldn't involve those trinkets


The guy with the broken arm stops because he's awaiting rescue or passed out from the pain. That or it's caused by the presence of beds, I don't know. They certainly walk about if the none are available for resting. If rescue wasn't coming, the Hunter would try to get back on his own. It's nothing that can't be fixed. Anyway, the rescue party would probably consist of fortress guard and be sent out much later when his absence is "noticed." Any threats would probably be gone by then. It's a really hamhanded approach but it's better than the current telepathy based system. I'm just focusing on Hunters since it'd be easier to manage and they can be expected to trek in the wilderness. I guess the flavor gained isn't worth the trouble

CapnMikey

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #6 on: July 27, 2009, 12:28:19 pm »

I'm totally in favour of things that give your dwarves more personality and autonomy!  All good suggestions, I especially like the part about dwarves breaking orders and rushing out to their deaths to saved loved ones.  It might be cool if players tried to contain them and they "fought back".  Lock a door?  They break it down!  Try and build a wall to block them?  Mason gets knocked out!  Could also be very frustrating if they did something really "stupid" that undermined your efforts or compromised your defenses at a crucial time, which would surely happen from time to time.

I think in order for situations like that to work (dwarves intentionally breaking a player-issued order), the game would have to record these incidents, and allow the player direct choice of disciplinary actions.  Or allow them to commend the dwarf's bravery, if they care about their little dudes.
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Pilsu

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #7 on: July 27, 2009, 12:45:25 pm »

Dwarves psychically figuring out their girlfriend is in trouble isn't a matter of giving them more autonomy. It's an irritating game mechanic

Autonomy is undisciplined troops panicking and breaking ranks or going berserk when their lover falls in battle and they're there to see it

Granite26

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #8 on: July 27, 2009, 01:01:09 pm »

Yes, but a knowledge system is independant of this.  At this point, all dwarves are psychic, yes.  Later, when they're not, your issues will resolve themselves.

Are you arguing "Not this until?"

QuakeIV

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #9 on: July 27, 2009, 01:30:58 pm »

Dwarves psychically figuring out their girlfriend is in trouble isn't a matter of giving them more autonomy. It's an irritating game mechanic

Autonomy is undisciplined troops panicking and breaking ranks or going berserk when their lover falls in battle and they're there to see it

Yeah, if you dont want the game to move forward in an area, just because there are situations where its agitating, then i cant consider that a viable counter arguement.

That would be like saying something like "we need to completely revamp or remove the wall building system because its so damn annoying when a dwarf builds himself a doorless room." Personally id think that would really add to the feeling of the game; Your managing a serious battle, and trying to seal the entrance to keep the goblins out.

Urist mc hero kicks over the lever for the massive gates and rushes out to save his wife wounded in battle and trapped otuside. Him being cut down and the fortress destroyed, while agitating to some, would be a awesome experience and challenge to deal with.
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Granite26

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #10 on: July 27, 2009, 01:36:39 pm »

We totally need this for Law Enforcement too...


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GlyphGryph

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2009, 02:52:28 pm »

I like this, especially, if nothing else, a dwarf automatically becoming better friends with his rescuer. I think declaring a rescue party, perhaps as a sort of "military" style recruit who can be sent to certain places and only retrieves wounded dwarves, would be wonderful.

I dont understand why a doctor couldnt operate on his family, though?
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Timst

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #12 on: July 27, 2009, 03:10:51 pm »

Well, that's something that happens in real life. The doctor is often too nervous to operate on a family member : imagine he fails and the patient die. If it was a total stranger, it's sad but it's how life works. If it was his son, he can't help but think he killed him, that it was is fault etc. This anxiousness can even cause him to have a tremor, then completely ruining his surgeon's skills. 

Pilsu

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #13 on: July 28, 2009, 04:42:57 am »

Yeah, if you dont want the game to move forward in an area, just because there are situations where its agitating, then i cant consider that a viable counter arguement.

Yeah except I specifically pointed out it'd be fucking stupid and breaks existing game mechanics with no justification as to why the dwarf would act in such a way or even know his bitch is in a jam again

Claiming I'm not progressive in this area is utter crock when I specifically pointed out areas it'd actually make some fucking sense in and equally undermine my control

CapnMikey

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Re: Health Care vs Relationships.
« Reply #14 on: July 28, 2009, 08:24:51 am »

Hey, you know what might be a cool extension of this?  If dwarves were instantly telepathically aware of their SO or children getting in trouble.  You hear stories about that sort of thing happening in real life all the time, might be a cool addition.  What do you guys think?  :D
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