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[Winterbrass]

My problem is just this:  What can this system of education do for my Dwarves that making them productive will not do?

Have them develop both social skills and job skills at the same time? Allegedly like real schools?

[Vester]

As it stands now, children gain nothing but epic social skills.

[Tlaon]

The apprenticeship is for dwarves that have just entered adulthood, as opposed to the schools, which are for children.  Apprentices would learn faster, and be less likely to injure themselves, assuming a self-injury mechanic is introduced for unskilled dwarves.  As for the idea that dwarves learn fast enough on their own, I don't think it would be too outrageous to suggest that the learning curve for dwarven skills be made steeper.  It's kinda ridiculous as it is.

So I guess my proposal is to make dwarves worse at learning, and then to give the player a way to teach them.

[Grendus]

The apprenticeship is for dwarves that have just entered adulthood, as opposed to the schools, which are for children.  Apprentices would learn faster, and be less likely to injure themselves, assuming a self-injury mechanic is introduced for unskilled dwarves.  As for the idea that dwarves learn fast enough on their own, I don't think it would be too outrageous to suggest that the learning curve for dwarven skills be made steeper.  It's kinda ridiculous as it is.

So I guess my proposal is to make dwarves worse at learning, and then to give the player a way to teach them.

I like the self-injury suggestion. I would like to throw in a few others.

1. Mangling the supplies. If a dwarf fails to make something, it should produce "Mangled x" where x is the item they tried to make. Some crafts (such as dying) could simply produce reduced value items while others (such as stonecrafting) could produce waste stone that has to be piled outside the fortress or chasmed. Mangled metal could be melted back down. Once dwarves reach a certain skill level, they stop mangling the supplies.

2. Shoddy goods. Dwarves with low skill may produce a good that has reduced value, labeled as "shoddy x". A shoddy good would be worth very little and probably need to be dumped as well. Producing value should require skill, not just assigning four dwarves to make crappy limestone mugs to buy out caravans.

3. Self injury. To expand on the earlier topic, self injury should range from light cuts to broken bones and even mortal wounds for low skilled dwarves. The chances of this happening would be reduced by skill til eventually dwarves are perfectly safe around whatever sharp object they're using.

This would make apprenticeships useful - getting your child laborers above the danger thresholds for crafting.

[Rowanas]

All dwarves should be able to go to school, not just kids. I think that some jobs should be taught by schools while others you learn by doing the job. Humans have always had the equivalent of "evening classes" for adults to learn non-work related stuff, and if certain jobs became non-moodable hobbies (the crafting jobs, for example) then you wouldn't get so many pointless dwarves, and so some currently crap professions would have added interest. If a dwarf is a stonecrafter it's because he's actually taken an interest in it. In this way, some jobs would be far more interesting and I feel that it would make my dwarves more real (and make craftsdwarves or other jobs special).

Obviously any job could be a learnable hobby, and to become legendary at any job the dwarf would have had to learn it at a school in addition to doing the actual practicing. Try finding a decent mechanic that has never read a book about car maintenance, or a painter that hasn't studied art. This way we can give schools more of a purpose and simultaneously balance skill progression.

[Tlaon]

Some jobs probably shouldn't require schooling to allow skill progression, but should still have some benefit.  Mining for example: it doesn't require schooling to become a really fast, physically powerful miner, but an education might allow them to predict and avoid underground hazards, once those are implemented, or at least allow them to predict the extent and location of veins or something.

I agree that adult dwarves should be able to go to school, but I think the ability to learn is something that children should have in greater magnitudes than adults.  An adult dwarf shouldn't be able to learn as fast as a child unless he is extraordinarily intelligent, or well educated already.

[Rowanas]

True. Currently all children are superagile, super tough and superstrong just because they spend 14 years doing nothing all day every day. In reality, we learn more in education than we do over the course of the rest of our lives, so it makes sense that children might (for the sake of simplicity) learn at the same rate, but they spend 90% of their time learning as opposed to 20% for an adult (if they're lucky).

[King_of_the_weasels]

Wouldn't doing nothing all day every day for 14 years have the opposite effect?

[Rowanas]

Exactly, but in DF children do sod all for 14 years and come out better than my toughest miners.

[Vester]

Talking a lot apparently builds muscle.

[King_of_the_weasels]

Dwarf chittlins with huge muscular mouths just destroying the rock with there chins, phooey on picks.

[Pilsu]

You really should let this issue rest as it's scheduled to be sorted already

[Tlaon]

Really?  Where does it say that?

[Bricks]

Bloat 32, part of the burrows arc.

[Tlaon]

Bloat 32 is kinda vague, and misses a lot of the scope of this suggestion.  I think it's worth discussing the implications of master-apprentice relationships, not to mention the dwarven childcare and education aspects which are entirely absent from that bloat.