Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship  (Read 4077 times)

Tlaon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile

Dwarven Maturation:
Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship

I.    Introduction
A dwarf under the current system squanders twelve years of his or her life.  They are uncared for, their young, supple minds hardening into the defined pathways of routine, locking away their creativity and potential.  There is no profession devoted to nurturing and improving them.  This cannot stand.  The proposal I outline here is not especially enlightened, but it carries the spirit I wish to convey: Dwarf children deserve our care and our guidance.

II.   Childcare
New Room: Nursery
New Profession: Caretaker


A dwarven parent spends much of their time, understandably, at work.  It is the nature of dwarves to labor for the glory of their fortress and for their own pleasure within the warm, inviting bosom of the earth.  But where should their children go while the parents are excavating the treasures of the deeps and crafting weapons of legendary power?
Why to the nursery of course!  Babies and, perhaps, children to young to be educable would be dropped off by their parents into the care of a caretaker, someone who would look after them, play with them (perhaps using toys), and read to them the stories of the ancient and glorious dwarven empire.  Here, children would develop rudimentary social skills and develop personality quirks that would follow them through life.

III.   Education
New Room: Classroom
New Profession: Teacher


In the wealthier fortresses, dwarves of noble heritage will want to craft their children into suitable heirs, possessed of all the intellectual capacity expected of a dwarven count.  The classroom is the perfect setting for such an endeavor.  Here, a dwarven teacher (either made wise by worldy experience, self taught from dwarven books, or an immigrant educated in the schools of the capital) endows these children with literacy, teaches them math, and, of course, briefly covers the dwarvenities: the ancient arts of mining, stoneworking, metalcrafting, and other things dwarven.  This education would last a varying amount of time depending, perhaps, on the interest of the dwarf and on the determination of his parents to have him educated.  More advanced topics, such as brokering, architecture, and recordkeeping, may be taught to those dwarves who wish to extend their education.

IV.   Apprenticeship
New Positions/Titles: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master

When a dwarf enters adulthood, he or she often starts out with few, if any, useful skills.  Rather than trying to learn these on their own and spending a lot of time and materials pumping out low quality items, a dwarf should be able to become an apprentice of a more experienced dwarf.  An apprentice would fetch materials for their master and watch them work; all the while, they would be gaining skill more quickly than if they were to try to learn on their own.  Eventually, the time would come for the apprentice to attempt his journeyman piece.  If he is successful, he can move off into his own workshop, perhaps.  As his skill increases, he can eventually try for master status by creating masterwork.
This can possibly tie into the suggested guild system: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23965.0

V.   Concluding Statements
In my opinion, one of the most important aspects of DF’s simulationist approach is how it tracks the way one thing becomes another.  Legendary dwarves are made, not born.  Ore needs to be mined, processed, and reprocessed into something useful and usable.  The end result of these labors is a product that is valuable not simply in its utility, but in the labor that’s gone into it.  How can we, as responsible fortressers, not put this same quality of labor, the same amount of dwarfhours into the children of our dwarves as we do into our iron picks and steel axes?  The goblins almost seem better at raising dwarf children than we are!  This must not stand.  Fellow fortressers, I implore you: Vote for the future of all our fortresses.  Vote for this suggestion in the Eternal Suggestion voting.

(Actually, I haven't put up the suggestion yet, but I will really soon.)
(Also, first post!  Hello world!)
(OK, suggestion is up now)

Please comment!  This isn't nearly complete or satisfactory.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2009, 11:15:04 pm by Tlaon »
Logged

MrWiggles

  • Bay Watcher
  • Doubt Everything
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #1 on: August 16, 2009, 01:17:42 am »

Number 2, would be a nice piece of fluff.

Number 3 doesn't need any new titles, you can simply base it on skill level wheather a dorf can teach  an apprentice. The child dorf I feel shouldn't start out any higher then plain name of the skill, depending on how much they learn and attended.
Logged
Doesn't like running from bears = clearly isn't an Eastern European
I'm Making a Mush! Navitas: City Limits ~ Inspired by Dresden Files and SCP.
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=113699.msg3470055#msg3470055
http://www.tf2items.com/id/MisterWigggles666#

Vester

  • Bay Watcher
  • [T_WORD:AWE-INSPIRING:bloonk]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #2 on: August 16, 2009, 01:25:04 am »

I'm not so sure about number three, since it seems a bit more organized than the current dwarves we know. I always figured dwarves were like chimps, with their kids following them around and learning from them.

Number two would at least stop mothers from using their children as shields.  ;D
Logged
Quote
"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Tlaon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #3 on: August 16, 2009, 01:32:36 am »

That reminds me, I'm not sure if the child-shield thing is a dwarf cultural thing (wouldn't want to be insensitive!) or not.  Obviously if it's inherent to their culture it can't be changed.  Or maybe it's a regional thing?

I figure the education thing would be for the children of the nobility.  It's not something everyone does.

Sensei

  • Bay Watcher
  • Haven't tried coffee crisps.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #4 on: August 16, 2009, 01:39:31 am »

They, it's a booze-based lack of judgment thing. They carry their child everywhere, even if that situation is extremely dangerous. The logic is probably that they're breastfeeding or something, but they REALLY shouldn't be doing it during a goblin siege.

On the other hand, if you get a baby with a title, your civ has a nice easy choice for a new king.
Logged
Arms Race Forum Game!  Design weapons and defeat the Spacebattles forum!
The Bay 12 Discord Join now! Voice/text chat and play games with other Bay12'ers!
Add me on Steam: [DFC] Sensei

Pilsu

  • Bay Watcher
  • Brash and bold.
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #5 on: August 16, 2009, 03:11:25 am »

What's a journeyman piece? Anyway, new ranks really aren't needed. Just make Proficient the cap to which you can teach pupils. At that point they stop making no quality garbage. Only Masters were allowed to have pupils in the days of old. When the dwarf reaches Master+ rank, he can attempt to join the guild by making a masterpiece. Just to point out, the current "masterpieces" aren't, they're simply masterful work. A masterpiece would be a tacky mini-artifact. They needn't be entirely masterful either, exceptional quality for every part would suffice. Masters still have a chance of making superior quality so that would be your failure chance. About 6% if memory serves. Being kept waiting for the materials for their guild thesis would probably be increasingly agitating


Jobs like record keeping should require the relevant skills. Teachers shouldn't be exclusive for nobles if the player wants to teach his population to read at least. I would think that parents would try to teach their kids to read on their spare time


Not all races should have access to nurseries or official teaching for the riffraff. Staying in the kitchen should be the default way of taking care of the kids for at least humans

Tlaon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2009, 03:28:37 am »

Traditionally, an apprentice makes a journeyman piece to prove his independence and skill and become a journeyman.  I'm not sure exactly what this would entail in the game.  It shouldn't be near artifact level, or really all that special.  It might have personal value to the journeyman though, as it testifies to his worth.

Master, Journeyman, and Apprentice aren't intended to be additional skill levels, just positions dwarves occupy in the guild/fortress hierarchy.  I don't really know how a masterpiece would work.  You're right that it would have to be separate from what is now considered "masterpiece" quality.

I'm thinking schooling is something nobles would ask for if they start having children and most other dwarves wouldn't care about.  Having a functional school would be difficult/expensive: noise would disrupt the studies, students would need desks and writing materials (I'm thinking slate and chalk are natural fits), and teachers would have to be knowledgeable and well socialized in order to be effective.

I don't know about other races.  Goblins obviously have no empathy, and thus simply beat their children.  Elves teach their children to be arrogant and to smell bad.

Rvlion

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2009, 05:24:56 am »

II.   Childcare
New Room: Nursery
New Profession: Caretaker


A dwarven parent spends much of their time, understandably, at work.  It is the nature of dwarves to labor for the glory of their fortress and for their own pleasure within the warm, inviting bosom of the earth.  But where should their children go while the parents are excavating the treasures of the deeps and crafting weapons of legendary power?
Why to the nursery of course!  Babies and, perhaps, children to young to be educable would be dropped off by their parents into the care of a caretaker, someone who would look after them, play with them (perhaps using toys), and read to them the stories of the ancient and glorious dwarven empire.  Here, children would develop rudimentary social skills and develop personality quirks that would follow them through life.

III.   Education
New Room: Classroom
New Profession: Teacher


In the wealthier fortresses, dwarves of noble heritage will want to craft their children into suitable heirs, possessed of all the intellectual capacity expected of a dwarven count.  The classroom is the perfect setting for such an endeavor.  Here, a dwarven teacher (either made wise by worldy experience, self taught from dwarven books, or an immigrant educated in the schools of the capital) endows these children with literacy, teaches them math, and, of course, briefly covers the dwarvenities: the ancient arts of mining, stoneworking, metalcrafting, and other things dwarven.  This education would last a varying amount of time depending, perhaps, on the interest of the dwarf and on the determination of his parents to have him educated.  More advanced topics, such as brokering, architecture, and recordkeeping, may be taught to those dwarves who wish to extend their education.

IV.   Apprenticeship
New Positions/Titles: Apprentice, Journeyman, Master

When a dwarf enters adulthood, he or she often starts out with few, if any, useful skills.  Rather than trying to learn these on their own and spending a lot of time and materials pumping out low quality items, a dwarf should be able to become an apprentice of a more experienced dwarf.  An apprentice would fetch materials for their master and watch them work; all the while, they would be gaining skill more quickly than if they were to try to learn on their own.  Eventually, the time would come for the apprentice to attempt his journeyman piece.  If he is successful, he can move off into his own workshop, perhaps.  As his skill increases, he can eventually try for master status by creating masterwork.
This can possibly tie into the suggested guild system: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=23965.0

Please comment!  This isn't nearly complete or satisfactory.
The nursery is a very good idea, I always find it strange that the dwarfs can actually keep working at the same speed as normal.
An educational system is also in my eyes a good idea, even if it only gives dabbling skill in a specific skill the child likes to do.
Logged

Winterbrass

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HOMEOTHERM:10032]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #8 on: August 17, 2009, 12:30:36 am »

Apprenticeship would also be an excellent way for Surgeons to learn if/when medical staff are put into play.
Logged
[PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_PANTS:RARE]
[CAN_CIV][CAN_SPEAK]
[ETHIC:USE_MIND_ALTERING_SUBSTANCES:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:CAUSE_UNFUNNY_DRAMA:SHUN]
[ETHIC:PLAY_DF_AS_ELVES:UNTHINKABLE]

Tlaon

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #9 on: August 17, 2009, 12:36:19 am »

They'd also work well for Sorcerers.

Winterbrass

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HOMEOTHERM:10032]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #10 on: August 17, 2009, 12:40:21 am »

They'd also work well for Sorcerers.

See, for some reason, when I think of Dwarf Fortress wtih magic, I see the ethics of it as sorta like this:

[ETHIC:ARCANE_MAGIC_GOOD:MISGUIDED]
[ETHIC:ARCANE_MAGIC_NEUTRAL:SHUN]
[ETHIC:ARCANE_MAGIC_EVIL:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
[ETHIC:DIVINE_MAGIC_GOOD:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:DIVINE_MAGIC_NEUTRAL:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:DIVINE_MAGIC_EVIL:PUNISH_CAPITAL]
Logged
[PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_PANTS:RARE]
[CAN_CIV][CAN_SPEAK]
[ETHIC:USE_MIND_ALTERING_SUBSTANCES:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:CAUSE_UNFUNNY_DRAMA:SHUN]
[ETHIC:PLAY_DF_AS_ELVES:UNTHINKABLE]

Joakim

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 05:49:41 am »

And the caretaker could take the children on trips around the fortress to show them the legendary engravings in the dining room. They'd be like a little string of kids. They could also visit different workshops just because it's interesting. This could give everyone good or bad thoughts depending on their personalities. "Urist Carpstripper was pleased to show kids how a *goblin totem* is made."
Logged

Winterbrass

  • Bay Watcher
  • [HOMEOTHERM:10032]
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 06:10:26 am »

And the caretaker could take the children on trips around the fortress to show them the legendary engravings in the dining room. They'd be like a little string of kids. They could also visit different workshops just because it's interesting. This could give everyone good or bad thoughts depending on their personalities. "Urist Carpstripper was pleased to show kids how a *goblin totem* is made."

Armok be praised, I can just imagine the fun when schoolteachers and their classes come face-to-face with angry orcish invaders while visiting the drawbridge.
Logged
[PANTS:ITEM_PANTS_PANTS:RARE]
[CAN_CIV][CAN_SPEAK]
[ETHIC:USE_MIND_ALTERING_SUBSTANCES:ACCEPTABLE]
[ETHIC:CAUSE_UNFUNNY_DRAMA:SHUN]
[ETHIC:PLAY_DF_AS_ELVES:UNTHINKABLE]

Grendus

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 08:22:08 am »

And the caretaker could take the children on trips around the fortress to show them the legendary engravings in the dining room. They'd be like a little string of kids. They could also visit different workshops just because it's interesting. This could give everyone good or bad thoughts depending on their personalities. "Urist Carpstripper was pleased to show kids how a *goblin totem* is made."

Armok be praised, I can just imagine the fun when schoolteachers and their classes come face-to-face with angry orcish invaders while visiting the drawbridge.

"Quick Urist Jr, pull the lever!"
"Goblin Wrestler has bled to death"
"Goblin Wrestler has bled to death"
"Goblin Wrestler has bled to death"
"Goblin Macelord has bled to death"
"Goblin Macelord has bled to death"
"Goblin Hammergob has bled to death"

"And that, children, is called dwarvish 'fun'"


I'd call it highly educational. As for the suggestions, I like them. I personally think the crafting system needs an overhaul though, crafting materials badly should produce items less valuable than the raw materials while decorations should increase values more than just the raw value of the material plus ten (the cascading value of decorations would have to be balanced out by a supply/demand system where only a king would want a 10,000 db mug). With the crafting overhaul and apprenticeships, dwarf children might be worth guarding against goblins.
Logged
A quick guide to surviving your first few days in CataclysmDDA:
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=121194.msg4796325;topicseen#msg4796325

HammerHand

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: Dwarven Maturation: Childcare, Education, and Apprenticeship
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 09:17:04 am »

I think lots of people have suggested including nurseries and apprenticeships - not that I'm complaining, as I haven't had the opportunity to see them fully discussed until now.

I would very much like to see a nursery for Fortress Mode.  A school might be nice, as I personally (and I do mean I personally) view Dwarves as intelligent and well-educated people - at least when they can afford academic pursuits.

At the same time, what the school does and what the apprenticeship does seem to clash with each other - at least so far as the game is concerned.  Why should children have to go to school to learn skills they will learn as an apprentice?  Perhaps a child learns some jobs at school and others by apprenticeship?

Of course, then we have the question of "Why bother with all this school and apprenticeship when any Dwarf can learn any labor just by doing it for a while?"  Do they learn faster this way?  It's not like they don't learn fast as it is.  A full-time woodcutter is legendary within a year.  A full-time stonecrafter is legendary in two (if that long).

It's a great idea, it really is, because I'd love to see the aforementioned field trips, and my little Dwarves all going to kindergarden and what-not, eating their Plump Helmet Biscuits and drinking their Sewer Brew booze-boxes before nap-time under pig tail blankets, drawing dimple dye finger-engravings and making cave wheat pictures to take home to their parents.  That would all be awesome, and it would make sense to give the kids somewhere to be while Mom and Dad carve out the earth's riches and/or make 30 rock doors over and over and over.

My problem is just this:  What can this system of education do for my Dwarves that making them productive will not do?  If in nursery they learn the different kinds of stones and metals and what they can do, what Goblins and Elephants and Carp are and why they should be avoided, and why not to stand next to the magma... that's all fine and dandy.  They're things Dwarves just kind of know.  But when it comes down to game mechanics and features, what are they doing other than just standing around in a child-only Meeting Hall with a single adult dwarf that doesn't leave?

Again, I'd love to see it.  Just playing devil's advocate, as usual.
Logged
Sooooooaaaaaap!
Tha's grreat!
Soooocks!
Pages: [1] 2 3