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Author Topic: Generalized Theory of Magic  (Read 4066 times)

mutant mell

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Generalized Theory of Magic
« on: February 26, 2008, 12:05:00 am »

I noticed a lot of people creating suggestion threads about magic recently, and as I have put a lot of thought into such a system, I decided to post my ideas about what my ideal magic system would be like.
I created it with the following in mind:

Core15; Core24; Core40; Req96; Bloat35; Bloat97; Bloat134; Bloat147; Bloat238; Bloat330; PowerGoal29; PowerGoal58; PowerGoal60; PowerGoal64; PowerGoal65; PowerGoal68; PowerGoal70; PowerGoal75; PowerGoal83; PowerGoal84; PowerGoal89; PowerGoal92; PowerGoal101; PowerGoal107; PowerGoal108; PowerGoal128

I also tried to take some of Toady’s ideas and implementations from Armok I, and I tried to make it as flexible as possible, and tried to make the components separate, so that people could disable individual parts if wanted, or even disable it all.

My main inspiration came from Edding’s the Belgariad and the Iron Kingdoms (they have the most awesome dragons ever.  They made them epic, unlike what DnD has done to them).

People who can use magic:

Magic is a raw force of power that can be accessed by different means, and at different strengths.  While very few creatures can directly access this power, there are many different ways of indirectly accessing magic, and with the help of various items, nearly anyone can access it.

Pretty much any creature can access magic to some degree, and the soul is the place that can access it.  Some rare people have the type of soul that can directly tap into the power; these are the types of wizards that can alter the entire course of history, and can take entire coalitions of nations to take on and kill.  Thankfully, these people are rare, there is perhaps one born in several generations.    These people are generally blessed with a great intelligence and a long lifespan, outliving their more mundane cousins.  They spend their time studying the world, as their knowledge can help improve their magic, and perhaps they could discover new things about the world.  

A wizard is treated as their own civilization, owing allegiance to no individual country, and having the power to back that up.  As such, they could raise their own army of mercenaries, or even some people who swear their allegiance to them.  Wizards hardly ever take apprentices, but sometimes they do, and sometimes there are even groups of Wizards working on some task or another, perhaps compelled by some greater force.  However, their most loyal followers are the golems that they create to so tasks for them, and even do war with them.  Golems are more durable than a fleshy meatbag, but learn more slowly, and have to be “programmed” to do specific tasks, so you can’t change their jobs as easily.

For those who were not born with such luck, there are many other ways to access magic.  By using various materials, a few specific gestures, and some powerful words, they can lead magic into their soul for a short period of time, and release it.  This magic does not come as naturally, but it still gets the job done.  Sometimes they apprentice themselves to a wizard, as while the wizard may not cast the same way, their knowledge of the inner workings of magic is unparalleled.  Magical research is interesting to some in this field.  Do not underestimate what these learned mages can accomplish, as the greatest amongst them can rival the might of a natural wizard.  Large nations employ magical colleges, where research and training for mages-to-be is unparalleled.  Mages can also put a bit of magic into an item, imbuing it with magical qualities, or perhaps having it conjure a certain kind of magic at a later date.  While creating a magic item is a hard task, it is well worth being able to use magic in an instant, instead of needing to spend time casting.

Some mages aren’t educated, they are a result of an affinity with magic, but much less than a wizard.  They experiment with material components, stumble through gestures, and choke through words to come into their magical prowess.  As a result, their magic can be more chaotic, and have a style distinctly their own.

Elementalists are mages who specialize in a particular element.  They are more often people who aren’t formally educated, and either were taught be a spirit of an element or felt a strong tie with that element.  They can take the traits of the element that they affiliate with.  The elements include: Earth; Fire; Wind (includes Sonic and Sound); Water; Lightning; Metal ; and Cosmos.  (Note: there are also elemental states, such as holy/unholy, good/evil, mundane/fantastic, light/dark, etc. etc.)

In addition to mages, rune-crafters and other such professions exist, people who have found magic in words and shapes.  These people do not refer to themselves as a mage, but instead as a craftsman, and take pride in their lack of waving their arms around and chanting silly words.  These runes channel magic into them, and imbue it into the stone.  These stones or gems could be embedded into objects, giving them supernatural powers, or they could be one-use items, such as gems that explode with magical cold when thrown against something.

While some creatures may not be able to access magic, every soul has some magical capability.  This is generally exploited in one of two ways.  The first way in a magical ritual, which gathers anywhere from a few to hundreds or people to join in.  A trained mage or wizard (or priest) can then harness the magical energy created by each person, and use that energy to do things otherwise beyond his capabilities.  However, the people in the ritual have some say in what they will do, and the magic they supply is directly related to their personal beliefs and values, a.k.a., if an evil wizard tricked an entire village to chanting to rain fire from the sky, the villagers must know what they are doing on some level to cause the ritual to succeed.

The second use for souls is a lot darker.  This use actually extracts a soul from a person, generally from someone who recently died, in the gap of time where their soul is still in the world and yet hasn’t moved on.  Souls can then be used to power vile machines, or empower gems in a similar way that rune-crafters will.  The inherent magic in souls can act as a power source, and entire cities could be run on the vile acts.  However, most souls don’t have an unlimited source of magic, and once the soul is run dry, it is utterly annihilated, removed from the cosmos forever.

Souls can also be used to fuel the life of the undead, changing mindless zombies and skeletons to dark vampires and ghouls, or even creating specters and ghosts.  The power of the soul is largely not understood, as only the most depraved would be willing to utterly destroy people to figure it out.

A soul can also be extracted from a non-humanoid, and this is not considered  nearly as vile an act, as the other creatures are stupid and not as important as humanoids.  It is not uncommon to find a fire-imp-soul powered sword or something like that in the right type of shop.

Priests are another type of magic users entirely.  Their powers are not tied to their personal capabilities (though they may have a talent for it, and may even be priest/mages), but to the capabilities of their God.  Their God blesses them with divine strength, and they can use that strength to perform miracles, such as baptisms and ceremonies, or even healings.  The Gods do not grant equal power to every priest; it is instead based on a hierarchy, either determined by the religion, or the God.  The most powerful of priests can even return the dead to life, though the process is so taxing to the God and the priest that it is rarely done.

Magic is versatile, and the uses I’ve described here are by no means the only ways to use it.  There are evil witches that make pacts with spirits in the area, and exploit the inherent magic of various plants and other things, and the workings of fey magic all but unknown to most practitioners of magic.  There could even be liches, who exploit the undeath to unnaturally prolong their life.

How to use magic:

Usage of magic varies depending on the user.  However, there are many characteristics of it that are universal amongst those who use it.  Magic is fatigue-based.  Doing a basic task, such as digging a hole, takes an equivalent amount of energy as physically digging the hole, but it is all focused in one action.   For the unprepared, it initially seems to be a lot more trouble than it’s worth, but while there is a strict limit on physical tasks, the mind can be trained to have almost no limit.

Like I said earlier, very few have direct access to magic.  What that actually means is that most people cannot call magic to them whenever they want, they need some sort of focus for their abilities.  That is what material components, gestures, incantations, runes, and other things do: they provide a method for people to access magic.  For some, this skill comes a lot easier to, and for others it’s nearly impossible.  While it is highly difficult, theoretically anybody could become a mage.

When trying to do something with magic, knowledge of what one is trying to do is crucial.  For instance, in order to heal someone of a sickness, knowledge of the human body is a must, as is what the sickness is, and knowledge of other cures helps out as well.  When trying to transform into an animal, the form, movement, and structure of the animal is required, else you become some sort of twisted mockery of it.  Summoning requires some knowledge of the creature summoned, as well as placing mental bounds on what the creature can do, else it turn on you.  Use of material components can lessen this need, as the components can provide a substitute for knowledge.  For instance, using a twig as a component to create fire can lessen the knowledge needed because of the way it interacts with fire.

The material component needed is highly dependent on what one is trying to do.  For instance, trying to conjure a fireball could perhaps use a small piece of wood, saltpeter, or the traditional bat guano.  While larger material components could be used, they are much more impractical, as carrying around a twig is much easier than carrying an entire tree.

Souls are used in a similar matter, but there is a key difference.  Souls are used as a kind of magnet to attract magic, but at great suffering to the soul.  The raw currents of the magic flow through the soul, tearing it apart from the inside and eventually destroying it over the course of weeks f agony.  That means that someone who is interested in souls needs a constant supply of them.  If the soul of a mage or (Gods forbid) a wizard, then the soul is much more durable, and can last for years, or, in the case of the wizard, decades, as they are much more used to magic flowing through them.

More about Wizards (and golems):

Wizards are users of magic who capabilities are far above most other users of magic.  These mighty men and women can change the entire course of history, and can fight toe to toe with entire civilizations.  They are unrivaled sources of knowledge about the world, as knowledge is essential to gaining more power.  However, they generally are aloof, and seldom care about furthering the knowledge of others.  That being said, there are records of wizards who spent a great deal of time spreading their knowledge and using their power to help others, so there are indeed exceptions.

Because of the large amount of time they spend studying and experimenting, very few wizards will go without their golem servants.  Golems are created to do tasks for the wizards, and can range from miners and wood cutters to brewers and farmers to military golems.  The time it takes to create a golem makes them a chore to make, but the payoffs are vast.  With an army of golems, a wizard doesn’t have to make his own food (they could conjure it, but few wizards learn enough about food to make it taste any good, much less make it entirely edible), build their own towers,  fight off the goblins, or do anything but further their magical abilities.

Golems are made up of several components.  By far the most important is the core.  This is generally a glass sphere imbued with a large amount of magical energy.  This energy acts kind of as the brain and the soul of the golem mixed into one source, and it powers the whole creation.  When a wizard creates a core, it tells the core what tasks it wants it to do, and how to do them.  Also, as a side effect of pouring so much magical energy into the core, the core gains a slight personality, though much more primitive than a humanoids.  After that, the golem can perform that task, and even learn how to do it better than it as told to (though it learns at a much slower rate that a humanoid).  If the wizard wants it do a different task, it has to directly access the core, and tell it to do something else.  A wizard will typically inscribe a name onto the core, and will call the golem by that name.  The core is the sole determiner of the capabilities of the golem, so if the wizard switches the cores of two golems, the capabilities and personalities of the two golems will switch as well.  Finally, if a golem is destroyed, but the core maintains intact, if the core is placed in a new golem, the core will perform perfectly.  If the core is damaged, the golem will perform tasks slower, will learn slower, and it may eventually shut down completely.

The rest of golems are composed of a torso, a head, and various appendages, not necessarily four, and not necessarily arms and legs.  A golem could consist of four legs and a crossbow mounted on its head.  Its four legs would provide additional mobility and stability, and the crossbow being mounted in its head would provide even more stability.  Most wizards will choose to create a humanoid golem, as it is the most versatile of the forms.

Golems can last for years, but eventually their bodies will break down.  However, the cores will not generally die off, and by switching out cores, golems can last forever, or al least until their core becomes damaged.

A wizard will come to a place that he wants to make his fort with a few golems, and during this time, he will be highly active in creating his fortress by conjuring various materials needed, and by overseeing the workings of his golems.  Once things have more or less settled down, the wizard will then lets his golems do his work for him.

That is not to say that golems are his only servants.  A wizard will attract individuals from all races that want to work for him, and wizards will generally pay well.  It is not uncommon to see elves, dwarves, humans, and even the occasional goblin or kobold all living in houses (or underground) next to a wizard’s tower.  Not that every wizard wants to deal with these interlopers, some wizards will completely shut themselves off from everyone else, a kill those who try and disturb his peace.

The magic itself:
Magic is life.  Magic is energy, flowing all around us at all times.  However, magic is much easier to manipulate than other energy, prefers certain areas to others.

(Honestly, I haven’t put a lot of thought into this.  I think that magic have a fair distribution all over the world, perhaps a little stronger in some places than others, but I don’t think it should have streams.  However, streams would fit the setting of this world better, and would be interesting.

One idea involving streams that I had was that there are two kinds of magic flows in the world, good flows and evil flows.  Evil areas are where there are no good flows, and good areas have no evil flows.  There are perhaps some naturally created areas, but more common is that evil flows would not enter areas where the land has been blessed, and good flows will not enter areas that have been defiled.   These could occur thanks to certain events, or even due to individual’s efforts.)

To wrap it all up:

I created a (I hope) large diversity of different kinds of wizards in this write up.  I tried to think of ways that each one of them could be interesting.

I wanted to create a system that could have both all-powerful wizards, and your typical adventuring wizard.  I hope I created a system that was worth reading about, as it is admittedly very long, and perhaps tedious.  Thank you for reading this.

[EDIT: cleaned it up a bit]

[ February 26, 2008: Message edited by: mutant mell ]

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Anfold

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 01:53:00 am »

I liked it, but I think the wizards themselves are a bit overpowered from your descriptions (although that kinda is the point of magic i guess).  Maybe limit the number of the megawizards to two or three, a good one, an evil one and a neutral one.  Racial affinities and religion should probably play an effect as well, after all, you don't expect to see a worshiper of Ed the Flaming Destroyer of Firey Flames to go around throwing lighting bolts and the like.

Maybe have dwarves favor runes (for artifact empowering), goblins favor curses and the like, elves the nature magics, humans and kobolds are generalists.  

Being attacked by an angered wizards battle golems sounds like fun, like a small army of bronze collosi. With the harvistable cores you could make all kinds of interesting things, like golen powered magma pumps... that could turn on you.

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mutant mell

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 01:58:00 am »

As for wizards being overpowered, I made them that way on purpose.  They are supposed to only be used in Wizard Tower mode, and are not supposed to be used in Adventure mode.  They are also exceedingly rare, even having 1 in an entire generation is uncommon.  I made a distinction between the two for this reason.  The mages are to be used in normal Fortress Mode, and in adventure mode.

It makes sense too, I mean, why would a mega-wizard sully his hands and waste his time adventuring for some petty Elven druid?  Especially when he could send a team of golems.

EDIT: I had a couple things I forgot to say about magic, and I didn't want to make the mmain post even longer, so I put them here.

What you can do with magic:

You can do nearly anything with magic, but figuring out the best way to accomplish something is hard at times.  For instance, in conjuring a ray of heat, that involve conjuring heat from either some nearby source, such as a fire, or even yourself, or it would involve conjuring heat from a far-away source, even another plane.

I said that the physical has limits; the mind seems to be limitless.  So, you can do most anything with the mind, some things just require more time and research.  You can attempt to do anything from moving objects to placing a fiery tongue on a sword, to conjuring a sword made out of some ancient material, to finding a loved-one long ago captured.  You just have to puzzle your way through how to do it.

A note about Cosmos:

I said that cosmos was an element earlier; I included it for a very specific reason.  It is the “force” element, so things that have a magical energy, but seem to have no particular elemental affinity, they are the element of cosmos.

[ February 26, 2008: Message edited by: mutant mell ]

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Speeeedy

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2008, 12:39:00 pm »

I've read through your post and I can tell you put a lot of thought into it.  I especially like the wizard idea, it has a lot of potential for being a fun new game mode.  However, some parts of your theory need to be fleshed out more to be usable in a game:

If only one wizard exists every generation, what happens when the player abandons their wizard fort?  Would they be allowed to advance one year and generate a new wizard?  Or does the game need to generate 100+ years of history until the next wizard shows up?

The part about summoning seems to contradict with the souls part.  It seems to imply that a wizard or mage with significant power and knowledge could over time create an infinite supply of any creature of their choosing, and since all creature have souls they would have an infinite supply of souls.  And since they created these souls, there would be no ethical dilemma in chopping out their soul for the soul powered magics.  

I think summoning would work better as a type of teleportation spell, but the party being teleported did not necessarily give their permission to be teleported.  I think this would also add a fun feature to wizard mode: if you want to summon a powerful demon, go ahead!  But you'll need to best it in combat before it will swear loyalty to you.

The part about magic being equally taxing as actually doing the task without magic doesn't make sense to me.  Sure it makes sense for digging a hole, but what about shooting a lightning bolt with enough energy to kill a human?  Wouldn't you need to experience the same amount of energy as the target, possibly killing yourself?  And exactly how would this transfer into a mana type system for the in game adventurer?

The part you added in your last post about magic being able to do nearly anything... Obviously that would be awesome, but I don't think its feasible to have such a robust system in a game.

Overall though, your ideas could make magic a lot of fun in DF.

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mutant mell

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2008, 03:55:00 pm »

quote:
Originally posted by Speeeedy:
<STRONG>I've read through your post and I can tell you put a lot of thought into it.  I especially like the wizard idea, it has a lot of potential for being a fun new game mode.  However, some parts of your theory need to be fleshed out more to be usable in a game:

If only one wizard exists every generation, what happens when the player abandons their wizard fort?  Would they be allowed to advance one year and generate a new wizard?  Or does the game need to generate 100+ years of history until the next wizard shows up?</STRONG>


I was thinking when I made this that the game would assume that in 1051, there was a single wizard in the game that had yet to make a tower, and that ~2 other wizards had established towers somewhere else in the world.  You could make peaceful contact with them, or declare war on them, or something else.  If he died, then you wouldn’t be able to create a new wizard tower for a while, until a couple years later.

Obviously, this puts a lot of pressure on the player to keep the wizard alive, more so than a regular fortress has, so there’s a couple ways around it.  The first is to skip ahead ~60 years, like you said, for another wizard to generate, or the game could create a new wizard when the old one dies, and then you could start over again.  Perhaps the game wouldn't even allow the player to create a new Tower for a while.

 

quote:
<STRONG>The part about summoning seems to contradict with the souls part.  It seems to imply that a wizard or mage with significant power and knowledge could over time create an infinite supply of any creature of their choosing, and since all creature have souls they would have an infinite supply of souls.  And since they created these souls, there would be no ethical dilemma in chopping out their soul for the soul powered magics.  

I think summoning would work better as a type of teleportation spell, but the party being teleported did not necessarily give their permission to be teleported.  I think this would also add a fun feature to wizard mode: if you want to summon a powerful demon, go ahead!  But you'll need to best it in combat before it will swear loyalty to you.</STRONG>


Whenever I saw summoning, I mean for it to be a teleportation-type of spell.  Sorry about that, it’s a house-rule whenever I play PnP RPGs (summoned creatures actually exist somewhere, they aren't spontaneously created), and I assume that that is the way most people think of summoning spells.  Bad habit of mine.

 

quote:
<STRONG>The part about magic being equally taxing as actually doing the task without magic doesn't make sense to me.  Sure it makes sense for digging a hole, but what about shooting a lightning bolt with enough energy to kill a human?  Wouldn't you need to experience the same amount of energy as the target, possibly killing yourself?  And exactly how would this transfer into a mana type system for the in game adventurer?</STRONG>

A few things about this: I meant it to be a baseline for basic tasks, and for it to be a stricter on people who are playing new wizards or mages.  When just trying out magic for the first time, a mage will find it perhaps more challenging than physically digging the hole.  As he mentally digs more and more holes, he will be able to tolerate it more.  Also, whenever I said that it takes an equal amount of energy, I really meant an equal amount of fatigue.  The way I thought of it, the mind is much better at handling fatigue than the body is.  Because of this, the mind can handle a lot more than the rest of the body could, and could handle doing the impossible.  Once you start doing the impossible, you have to start the process over again.  So, just think of it like this: a mental task requires a similar amount of fatigue of the similar mental task.  Once you start doing the impossible, it takes more mental strength, but the mind is now more capable of handling it.

And as for how it would work into a mana-type system, I was hoping to do away with mana entirely.  I hate mana-based systems, about as much as I hate HP is computer games.  If you wanted, you could think of the character having a “fatigue-meter,” and when the meter is low, you cannot cast your spells properly.  Only in addition to that, you couldn’t hold a sword as well, you couldn’t dodge as well, and you’d get more and more exhausted.  And you could still cast your spells when your meter is too “low,” at that point, you’d collapse from exhaustion as your body tries to recuperate, and perhaps you’d use so much of your bodies energy that you’d die.  It’d make a valiant last stand effect, casting fireballs at a swarm of goblins, and when you kill the last archer, you collapse from the combination of physical and mental bruising, and die.  Bards would sing about your last-stand for ages to come.

 

quote:
<STRONG>The part you added in your last post about magic being able to do nearly anything... Obviously that would be awesome, but I don't think its feasible to have such a robust system in a game.</STRONG>

I said that mostly to try and set a mood.  A mage can accomplish a lot more than a “normal” person could, but they cannot actually do everything.

 

quote:
<STRONG>Overall though, your ideas could make magic a lot of fun in DF.</STRONG>

Thanks, it was a lot of fun writing it. I don’t have anyone around here to bounce ideas off of for a magic system, so I don’t generally have people look at my ideas and whatnot.  Any other criticism or comments anyone could add would be helpful.  I just hope this helps out Toady when he starts magic.

EDIT 2: I don't want to bump this, but I have some more things to say about this.

My ideas would go well with two other ideas: Splitting up skills into the core components (work, material, etc), and allowing the user to go back to world generation whenever they want to, advancing the world several years.  The skills part would allow wizards that have spent a lot of time doing, say woodworking, to have greater affinity with wood, and be able to have greater magical prowess with wood.  Allowing world generation to happen after the player has played in a world.

[ March 05, 2008: Message edited by: mutant mell ]

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mutant mell

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2008, 04:58:00 pm »

Posting some stuff I wrote in a different thread about runic magic.

An except from a lecture on runic magic:

"There is magic in words, shapes, symbols, and forms. These symbols can trap magic, and make the object display supernatural phenomena, such as combustion without fuel or heat, can spontaneously make water, make the hardest steel soft as silk, can prolong life in those near death, and suck the life out of someone, leaving them a mere shell of their former self.

Dwarfs are good at this. They can feel the power behind shapes and forms, and can feel their way through the creation of such items. We humans have no such luck. We have to reference books, and we have to get down the symbols perfectly, for even a small change in the symbol can leave it powerless, or worse, give it an unintended effect. The best runemasters amongst us studied with the dwarfs, and even they make constant mistakes. The dwarfs have us beaten in that aspect, for sure.

But while they may be good with symbols, we are not entirely behind them, for we are good with casting. It makes sense, as we a flighty beings, wanting to have flash and fame while we live; the dwarfs want to make things that last ages. However, that is not true of all dwarfs. There are a few dwarf wizards, some sitting in on this very lecture. Like how we send them humans, they send us dwarfs to learn our craft. And the best dwarf wizard has enough power to rival any one of us, I'll tell you this."

"While the runes themselves draw magic to them, that does little good if the rune cannot hold onto the magic for any period of time. For instance, if one merely carves a rune into a tree, for instance, the tree will be slightly magical, but the magic will not do anything. However, if I took a small amount of gold leaf, and put it inside the carvings, the magic would be able to gather and stay in the rune, and magically enhance the tree.

Gold is a common material to use in runes; magic seems to be magnetically attracted to it. However, that is a topic for another day. Other materials work, but some only have limited uses, or are also expensive. For instance, the mythical Adamantine is said to not only draw upon magic, but also seems to create it. Among the more mundane materials include gypsum, which is used in fireproofing, liquefied plant material, and even blood. While the material may seem like it would rub off or disappear, the magic inherent in the material and the shape will cause it to, shall we say, stick around. Iron is a material that does not seem to work well at attracting magic, but iron weapons and other things will still accept magic from a rune inscribed on them.

There are mainly two different kinds of runes: inscribed and attached. Inscribed runes are ones that are etched directly onto the object; these runes tend to be more powerful, but cannot be easily removed, as we will get to in a minute. Attacked runes are generally etched on a plate of some sort, which is then attached to an object in a manner that is called a "conduit." Like water flowing through a canal, magic flows out of the plate and into the object. While this may seem superior, the magic is not as inherent in the attached object, and the magic tends to be weaker and shorter-lived. So, while both have their advantages, you need to think carefully.

As I mentioned earlier, there are limits to runic magic. For one, inscribed runes can not be easily removed. Removing magic from a source so suddenly spells (pardon the pun) disaster. It requires more magic to remove it, but again thats a subject for later. Also, while an object could theoretically have as many runes as there is surface area for it, there is indeed an upper limit. Objects can only take so much magical abuse before they disintegrate into nothingness. While some objects may take magic readily, it is still foreign to them, and like a body with leprosy, will die off. One exception to this rule is dwarf artifacts. While taken by a "mood," a dwarf can force a seemingly infinite amount of runes onto an object. There is no explanation as to why this is by the dwarfs, and they don't even seem to understand it.

So, in the little time we have left, I have a task for you. On the table behind me in sheep leather and powdered gypsum, as well as inked copies of the rune of "fireproofing." For this task, you will take one of the provided knives, and will very shallowly cut out the rune onto the leather. Then, you will take the powdered gypsum and lightly dust the inside of the cuts. If you did it right, then the leather will not burn when exposed to a flame. Small variations in the pattern will result in nothing happening, but I must warn against experimenting with your own designs. People have been known to destroy entire villages by experimenting like that."

Also a bump in disguise.

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MagicJuggler

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2008, 09:03:59 pm »

I wasn't sure as to whether I wanted to resurrect this post or whether I should start another one. In the end I chose to resurrect.

I believe Runes are more intrinsically Dwarven than any other form of magic. Perhaps it's Warhammer that did that to me but I recall in the Fantasy game that you could add up to three runes to an artillery piece, or make a weapon, piece of armor, or talisman consisting of three pieces. So you could have a catapult with the Rune of Accuracy, which would reduce the chances of unfavorable scattering, or a ballista with Flakkson's Rune of Seeking, which would grant bonuses vs. aerial targets. A similar system could be used for assorted structures; depending on the quality of the components used, one could add a number of runestones to the structure. A screw pump that could transmute liquids would be an example. However, destroying such a structure would generate unhappy thoughts in the runecaster.
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G-Flex

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #7 on: October 16, 2008, 09:30:05 pm »

Holy wall of text, Batman.

I honestly think Toady could use general suggestions on issues more than some sort of prefabbed, complicated plan. I mean, it seriously sounds like you're trying to do the designing *for* him here. It's not your game.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #8 on: October 16, 2008, 10:02:15 pm »

It isn't a Wall of Text it is a Ladder of Text... To see a Wall of text copy and paste his post in word and transform it into one paragraph.

Anyhow because I am short on time, I shouldn't even be commenting, Ill only poke holes for now:
A) Good and Evil: Toady is trying to move away from making good and evil as a force in it of itself and is trying to go towards spheres. While it is questionable if "Evil" and "Good" is going to leave the game as a whole, in fact I personally doubt it, it makes little sense that those two allignments can constitute the two pillars of magic.
B) Golems: They are cool and all, but remember that Toady has planned on giving Wizards a greater range of servants created via magic including newly created creatures that are not in the RAWs.
C) Runes: Alright, I understand that they arn't Dwarf exclusive, you have flavored this towards the dwarves. This gives dwarves a power exclusive to their own.
D) Simple Magic: You seem to exclude that ordinary people do (depending on what toady does next) have access to magic through scientific practices such as Alchemy.
E) Religion as Magic: you put an overimportance on Priests especially since most if not all the stories Threetoe has written where Divine power was called upon involved Non-priests.
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Aquillion

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2008, 12:11:36 am »

That's a lot of words.

I skimmed it, so I might have missed some things, but my general thoughts:

Too many setting-specific things.  I believe that the magic system in Dwarf Fortress should be as generalized as possible, set up to allow for many utterly, completely different-looking kinds of magic and magical effects that can nonetheless interact with each other meaningfully...  this is especially true for your highly-restrictive definition of a wizard.

For some reason, I don't like the intense focus on souls, either.

I had my own post (which has some similarities to yours) here.  You might want to glance over it.

In general...  I felt that there should be a concept of magical 'umph', the raw magic used to power magical effects.  This can come in different flavors, and anything that uses magic draws on it.

It would regenerate naturally in some life-forms (magical creatures like unicorns, say, or ancient elven trees), and parts of those could be used for magic.  Deities (and perhaps demons) would be powerful magical creatures who could then provide their power to others, either by using it directly themselves as divine miracles, or by granting it to spellcasters who invoke them.

There would likewise be countless different ways to utilize it; different civilizations might focus on different ones.  Some creatures would be able to utilize it innately (like demons or pixies), while other might study rituals or alchemical principals used to draw it out of objects.
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Soralin

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2008, 12:23:12 am »

I want something like this from the far future goals page:

PLANES: Once it's all established, you can make regions arbitrarily strange, and you make a lot of them. The real chore here is allowing multiple world maps to be active in one way or another and to allow game elements to move between them. It would be a headache to program, but it would add a lot to the game. Related to PowerGoal81.

Open up a portal to a plane of fire, a !!world!!, and then try to colonize it by pumping cold water in through the portals, and through/around your underground area, and sending the hot water (what didn't evaporate), back through the portal, or out onto the surface or something, in order to keep things cool enough to be survivable.  (Or maybe just a large enough portal, or large numbers of them in the middle of a frozen tundra, cold air cooling off the area around them in the plane of fire and heating things up and melting ice around the portals on the blizzard side) Add in some resources/places that are rare or ones only found in that plane, have it inhabited by spirits of fire and magma men and other similar creatures too while you're at it. :)  Or other similar elemental or exotic or otherwise dangerous and difficult to colonize planes with their own risks and rewards. :)

Of course that would require some massive additions and changes to the game, like being able to control fortresses in multiple different locations, and the connections between them, and more temperature calculations for underground, so everything down there isn't just a constant temperature, as well as for the water/air, (and some method of seeing what the temperature is of certain locations/objects would be nice to make this usable enough to work).  As well as the whole magic and other added content stuff. :)
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 12:35:30 am by Soralin »
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Silverionmox

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2008, 05:56:27 am »

Something to keep in mind is that religions and their clergy should be functional and meaningful in the game world as a social organization... without magicking. Religion has a gigantic impact on society. Divine entities are probably capable of direct intervention. Of course, the metaphysics could be that they're not. Benefits of devotion to a deity needn't be limited to priests, nor need they be limited to spells.
Also, there's no reason why non-priestly magic users shouldn't be able to use magic in a healing way.
In any case, make sure that those who wish are not technically obligated to conform to D&D stereotypes of club-wielding, undead-turning, robed HP-restorers.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2008, 07:03:35 am »

Quote
make sure that those who wish are not technically obligated to conform to D&D stereotypes of club-wielding, undead-turning, robed HP-restorers

Well you are the one that said "Healing"... Way to break the steriotypes  :P
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Silverionmox

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 07:20:01 am »

Eh? I'm explicitly mentioning it to make sure non-divine magic-users potentially have access to it. It's an established standard in fantasy gaming to have the semi-exclusive association of clerics, divine magic, and healing, you'll acknowledge that.
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Neonivek

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Re: Generalized Theory of Magic
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2008, 07:23:27 am »

It is interesting that "Religious" characters more and more are starting to be the only ones with healing ability when this was never the set "Standard" but is starting to be. (the number of systems that says weird things like "Magic cannot heal" is odd to me)

Healing isn't outside the domain of regular magic and shouldn't be.
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