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[Bricktop]

Basically, this is two suggestions both based around the same topic, stone tools.

Sharpenable Stones

This is quite a simple suggestion. Based on the Dwarves technology, I am assuming that the stone components of the obsidian swords are made using various knapping techniques (knocking chips off the stone until you have the desired shape).

If this is the case, then there are quite a few other stones that should also count as Sharpeneble. For example, flint is even better that Obsidian for taking an edge when knapping, and chert can also be used in a similar way.

Basically, this suggestion is that it should be possible to make stone weapons/tools out of quite a few types of stone, rather than just Obsidian.

Stone Tools

This suggestion is a bit more complex. If we can make stone short swords (which would only be effective if they were small stone flakes mounted on another component) then why can't we make stone axes? Stone axes and blades are very sharp, and it would make sence to include stone axes, since stone swords are already in.

However, if stone tools are more effective than metal tools as well as being easier to obtain, what would be the downside? I propose that the downside would be that every time a stone tools/weapon is used, there is a chance that it will break. Afterall, stone tools/weapons might be sharp, but they are also very brittle.

eg If a dwarf armed with a stone sword attacks a goblin, then the goblin will be armed but it is also possible that the sword will either become blunt (mildly damaged) or break completely. Blunt weapons would have to be dumped, but would at least give the dwarf something to use in the rest of the combat, whereas a broken weapon would be destroyed and disapear, leaving the dwarf unarmed.

eg A dwarf woodcutter has a stone axe, for each tree he cuts down, there is a chance that it will destroy the axe in the process. This would mean that tools and weapons could be produced easily and in great quantity, but would need to be replaced often.

This system would also leave room for a similar wear system to be implemented for metal tools/weapons, but without the possibility of destruction and also with the possibility of repairing the weapon (steel axe gets blunt? re-sharpen it). Various metals could also have different levels of durability, but that is a suggestion for another time.

The main suggestions here are for more stones to be considered sharpenable and for the possibility of stone tools which would be cheap, numerous but also temporary.

[Draco18s]

Seconded

*Wonders if he can wish that DF worlds had the properties of the alternate Earth in The Practice Effect*

[penguinofhonor]

.

[gurra_geban]

this is a great suggestion, and metal weapons did break in quite an extent during medeval times when they were banging then against eachother, and they were dull after almost every combat.

a new skill, sharpening could also be implemented in this case, where legandary sharpeners add some bonus damage to the weapon.
with bonus damage a weapon damage multiplier should be removed though and replaced by bonus damage instead, for example a well crafted sword deals 10 bonus damage instead of 20% bonus damage.

[Bricktop]

I was thinking that metalsmithing could be used to sharpen the weapons, just to keep it simpler. Better the skill, quicker its done.

EDIT: Also, I was thinking for stone axes to be hand-axes instead of battle axes. Maybe metal hand axes could be put in as well? It'd make more sence for a woodcutter to turn up with an iron hand axe than a super-valuable steel battle-axe...

[ February 26, 2008: Message edited by: Bricktop ]

[Speeeedy]

I would love to see more sharpenable stones added from your suggestion.  And add bolts to the list of items that can be made out of stone.  That is, sharpened stone arrowhead (or bolthead?) and a wooden shaft.  Native American's used obsidian for arrowheads if I recall correctly.

Edit: I don't so much like the idea of rock items breaking.  Either add durability to everything or nothing.

[ February 26, 2008: Message edited by: Speeeedy ]

[Psyco Jelly]

As an argument to flint being better for sharpening to an edge than obsidian, you are wrong. Obsidian is the sharpest material discovered. It has a near-molecular edge.

 Obsidian blades are produced by placing a shard of obsidian between two secured blocks of wood, and forcefully rammed through. BUT it goes dull after cutting anything significantly hard, such as stone or metal.

~*- The more you know! -*~

[polpoint]

sharpening metal weapons should be a military skill - not a craftsman's skill. You don't give your weapon to somebody to be sharpened unless you are a pleeb. And the original sharpness comes from the skill of the =-**=Godlike=**-= weaponsmith. Maybe there could be a whole new class of skills a-la the new social skills that involve the military. I will write a new suggestion with all my ideas.

[Cosmonot]

quote:Originally posted by Psyco Jelly:
<STRONG>Obsidian blades are produced by placing a shard of obsidian between two secured blocks of wood, and forcefully rammed through. BUT it goes dull after cutting anything significantly hard, such as stone or metal.</STRONG>

As I understand it, obsidian is pretty much guaranteed to break as soon as you hit steel. It only cuts well against things like leather, cloth, and flesh. Even bone can sometimes damage it. Against a guy wearing metal armor that covers his whole body, an obsidian sword is just a fancy, wooden club.

Considering that an important part of Dwarf Fortress currently is securing a large supply of steel, I don't think that allowing stone to replace it in any fashion is a good game balance idea. Players are willing to devote considerable efforts to throwing stone away; under such conditions, I think stone weapons and tools should only really be desirable if for whatever reason it is entirely impossible to get metal equipment, for both balance and thematic reasons.

[Bricktop]

quote:As an argument to flint being better for sharpening to an edge than obsidian, you are wrong. Obsidian is the sharpest material discovered. It has a near-molecular edge.

Obsidian blades are produced by placing a shard of obsidian between two secured blocks of wood, and forcefully rammed through. BUT it goes dull after cutting anything significantly hard, such as stone or metal.

I was aware that Obsidian could have a near-molecular edge, but I had always assumed that this would only be possible with some form of modern technology. Meh, live and learn.

 

quote:   

As I understand it, obsidian is pretty much guaranteed to break as soon as you hit steel. It only cuts well against things like leather, cloth, and flesh. Even bone can sometimes damage it. Against a guy wearing metal armor that covers his whole body, an obsidian sword is just a fancy, wooden club.

Considering that an important part of Dwarf Fortress currently is securing a large supply of steel, I don't think that allowing stone to replace it in any fashion is a good game balance idea. Players are willing to devote considerable efforts to throwing stone away; under such conditions, I think stone weapons and tools should only really be desirable if for whatever reason it is entirely impossible to get metal equipment, for both balance and thematic reasons.

The reason I think the suggestion is important is because the idea of stone weapons and tools is already in the game, along with some of the basic things required.

Also, while a lot of players focus on finding the perfect steel-making site, that is the player's choice on what they consider more important. We can't rule out suggestions for non-steel-making sites on the basis that "I won't be building there".

 

quote:. That is, sharpened stone arrowhead (or bolthead?) and a wooden shaft.

Of course! Arrowheads! I knew there was something really common that I was missing, but I couldn't quite think what. Flint arrowheads were really common in Europe as well in the stone age and Bronze age. Besides, do you really want your hunter going after elephants with bone bolts?

Spears were also pretty common (most likely made to be thrown when hunting, but meh, our dwarves can stab if they want).

 

quote:I don't so much like the idea of rock items breaking. Either add durability to everything or nothing.

In the main post I did suggest that durability be added to metal items as well. I just didn't elaborate much as I was focusing that post on the topic of stone tools/weapons.

However, the way it is at the moment I do consider the obsidian blades to be 'over-powered'. Not in an obvious a way as shooting currently is, but the fact that a piece of rock and a piece of wood can make what is effectively a steel blade... Its not even like obsidian is in short supply. Not now that volcano's replenish.

EDIT: I think the idea of stone axes would be more useful if item material affected jobs like wood-cutting (a bronze axe would be slower than a steel axe etc).

[ February 27, 2008: Message edited by: Bricktop ]

[Draco18s]

quote:Originally posted by Bricktop:
[QB]I was aware that Obsidian could have a near-molecular edge, but I had always assumed that this would only be possible with some form of modern technology. Meh, live and learn.

Nope.  That's just the way obsidian fractures.  It's WHY in modern day we use it over glass.  If it took modern tech we wouldn't sharpen obsidian, we'd sharpen modern glass.

[Mechanoid]

TBH the lack of stone tools is similar to the lack of wooden and metal mechanisms, among other things.

There are serious disconnects in the item flow; without a pick axe of some sort, you cannot mine the stone that would've been used to make your stone axe, because there's no way to get stone without mining it... And the same goes for wood.
At least until boulders and drift wood can be used as actual resources.
[And bone can be used to make pick axes from]

[ February 28, 2008: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Romantic Warrior]

quote:Originally posted by gurra_geban:
<STRONG>this is a great suggestion, and metal weapons did break in quite an extent during medeval times when they were banging then against eachother, and they were dull after almost every combat.</STRONG>

Medieval weapons have been found that were resharpened quite a bit but not nearly to the extent of every battle. There wouldn't be any surviving weapons from the time, they'd all be sharpened down to twigs.

You don't sharpen an axe or sword like a pocket knife. A razor sharp edge isn't usually the norm(that's not as true for swords but mostly valid), the cutting power comes from the edge geometry.

[Hyperturtle]

I say that there are craters that have meteroric iron in them.  Vikings used that without really realizing it was a space rock, but the asians seemed to be on the lookout from rocks from space, and have made some amazing swords from it.

Granted, not all iron from space is of the same quality, but and some of it is pretty poor, but on the plus side there is also excellent quality that is quite difficult to replicate.  Perhaps it can be another rare mineral type encased near magma areas, or after you manage to drain a lake and find it in the lake walls/bed?

No need for meteor strikes in the game, just the occasional really rare fragment of good iron that can be made into better steel?

[anyar]

quote:Originally posted by polpoint:
<STRONG>sharpening metal weapons should be a military skill - not a craftsman's skill. You don't give your weapon to somebody to be sharpened unless you are a pleeb. And the original sharpness comes from the skill of the =-**=Godlike=**-= weaponsmith. Maybe there could be a whole new class of skills a-la the new social skills that involve the military. I will write a new suggestion with all my ideas.</STRONG>

I would think the exact opposite. Low-ranking soldiers wouldn't have the cash or esteem to keep their weapons maintained. However, in DF, dwarves are communal, so weapons are not personal property, which mitigates this. I would imagine that adventure-mode sharpeners/cleaners/maintainers/repairers could be quite cool once weapon wear is implemented though.