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Author Topic: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy  (Read 11194 times)

E. Albright

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2009, 11:31:33 am »

Really what about Pre-sleepers? Then again back then you couldn't win because the Supreme court was basically Conservative Highlanders.

Pre-sleepers? When was that, exactly? I've been playing LCS since '04 and there have always been sleepers. If in the first 18 months or so of its life there were no sleepers for some period, I defer to the voice of experience, and welcome the history lesson. Not that this changes the fact that now is a bit late to start complaining about sleepers being a viable means of winning. That horse left the barn long, long ago.

Quote
we may as well concede that it never existed

Goodness, stop jumping off cliffs.

No at most we concede is something entirely different. Liberal Mastermind

You're missing the point. Violence has NOT been written out. It has always been possible to win the game via ultraviolence. It has always been possible to win the game via sleepers. That one option might (might) be at a certain moment easier than the other does not make the other "effectively written out". Stop overreacting. Presenting alternative paths to victory is a good thing, not some monstrous situation that must be fixed at all costs.

Though Fine. Violent Play style Never existed. Are you happy? since either way there is a problem.

The point is that if sleepers being effective in securing victory writes violent victory out of existence as you claim, it already happened a long time ago. Last I checked, violence was still a viable means of solving problems in LCS.

The existence of viable alternate strategies to win is not a problem.

If the brainwashing path continues then the game should shift to become just that. So we got a problem on two fronts
1) Violence isn't supported
or
2) Brainwashing isn't supported
or
3) Violence isn't supported as a distinct advantage in the same way Brainwashing isn't supported properly through gameplay.

This makes no sense. Violence is, as ever, supported. Brainwashing is, as ever, supported. That's how it always has been. Both are, as ever, supported.

Your third alternative (of two?!?) is incoherent. Clarify, please. Or wait, are you arguing that it's wrong and a clear problem needing rectified that violence isn't distinctly superior to brainwashing? Um... okay. Duly noted. You want your preferred playstyle made dominant by nerfing the other path to victory until it is no longer a viable strategy. *sigh*

So what is it E-bright, is it a problem with violence or sleepers or Both or all of them?

Neither. And please refrain from juvenile distortions of my name.


Quote
If you like the violent approach... go for it.  You'll have fun too
It really isn't supported. I can't play badly intentionally. I am not programmed that way.

Hey!

Stop having fun, guys!
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Servant Corps

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2009, 11:46:01 am »

1) This is the Liberal Crime Squad, not the Liberal Violence Squad. There's a difference. Brainwashing is a crime. The main problem is the power of the Liberal Guardian for you to win without committing any crime whatsoever, but we don't really have to do anything to deal with that though, since that's a niche approach.

2) Sleepers are are a problem because the Liberal Power of Sleepers can be improved for every single Sleeper you acquire. Meanwhile, the power of AM Radio and Cable News stays constant, or even gets removed entirely once enough people stop watching AM Radio and Cable News.

I think I programmed some minor nerfs to Sleepers, but these nerfs only apply when society are already going Liberal, and it doesn't deal with the main problem of you just waiting for the Sleepers do all the hard work.

Further.

3) Violence is also overpowered. Kill a Conservative at AM Radio every day, and soon everyone gains Liberal viewpoints. Also, the Bouncer trick.

4) Therefore, if violence is overpowered, non-violence is overpowered, and brainwashing is overpowered, I think it is easy to conclude that the Liberal Crime Squad is overpowered. The way to deal with it is to buff the CCS, and there has been many suggestions on how to deal with that.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 11:47:55 am by Servant Corps »
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E. Albright

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2009, 11:58:56 am »

Yay your being malicious.

How so?

Quote
a) Go the Brainwashing rout and turn the game into a grindfest with no realistic chance of failure
-Unsupported

According to you, this option is very much supported. That's the gist of your complaint, in fact.

B) Go the Violent route and have the game become crippling hard
-Unsupported

Cripplingly hard as compared to what? It's not significantly harder now than it was in past versions - the only change is that there's now another, very different way to win.

C) A Mixture (Actually, Mixture is just B)

Right. Mixture (and thus by implication, the balanced and desirable playstyle) just so happens to be your preferred playstyle. Naturally.

Mixture need not be "just B". Mixture is non-stealth with some sleepers. That leaves a range of options, with the only required violence being shutting down the CCS. With enough sleepers, you currently can even avoid that by disbanding, no?

So the game needs to expand the brainwashing aspect of gameplay to support is as a viable game strategy which it currently isn't. Did you read his strategy? What part of it sounded like playing the game.

All of it. Though I, in my benighted, narrowminded folly, can't seem to grasp that the only way to lay the game is through obvious and gratuitous violence, so my opinion plainly doesn't count.

On a side note Albright, "Stop having fun guys" doesn't apply.

Surely you jest. In your prior post you make the assertion that "I can't play badly intentionally. I am not programmed that way.", and then claim that SHFG doesn't apply? I'll admit you exhibit more of the other mentality, but your dogged insistence that you're being forced (forced!) to play a way you don't enjoy in order to have the easiest possible time winning is pure SHFG.
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E. Albright

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2009, 12:05:18 pm »

Ps. Your statement of "This is Liberal Crime Squad not Liberal Violence Squad" ignores context. It wasn't crime it was violent crime.

Um. What? We're talking about kidnapping someone. Tying them to a chair for days on end. Torturing them. Breaking down their personality.

That is very much a violent crime.

Although, yes, with enough high-persuasion recruiters, you can simply convert C+ people and have them serve as non-brainwashed sleepers. However, this is a lot more work, and yields low-Heart, high-Wisdom sleepers. Which is, I imagine, why no one has been proposing it.
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Neonivek

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2009, 12:19:07 pm »

I conceed
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 12:25:36 pm by Neonivek »
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E. Albright

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2009, 12:32:29 pm »

[redacted]

I agree this argument is going nowhere. It's getting too meta. I'll gladly join you in ending it.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 12:34:50 pm by E. Albright »
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Neonivek

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2009, 12:36:54 pm »

It is one of those arguements where the only loser is everyone
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Toady One

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2009, 01:37:40 pm »

I removed the safety'd post per user request.  I am glad the spirit of calm prevailed before I got here.
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Alexhans

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2009, 01:40:04 pm »

what???   :-\

You guys have no sense of humour... at all...

I exagerated the post so I made the point...

Tl,Dr... flaming is useless... But OBVIOUSLY flaming as a joke like I did there and explaining it in a spoiler in the same post doesn't seem to be understood...  ::)

EDIT:  Actually... I'll complain about this attack to our free speech in the rant thread!!!  As far as I know... Free speech is L here.

« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 01:42:35 pm by Alexhans »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2009, 02:44:18 pm »

Setting aside the tone of the argument, but addressing the central concerns motivating its start in the first place, I've never played a version of LCS where sleepers weren't the primary way to win. I wrote a post not unlike this one five years ago, back when Toady was coding the game himself, and I was a teenage fanboy. ;) The synopsis of my post was criticizing the ability to play like this:

1. Recruit one squad of sweatshop workers.
2. Have them make and sell expensive suits at the pawn shop. This was the way to grind money back then, garnering around $8000/day for a single squad of sweatshop workers.
3. Seduce three full squads of agents with a random sweatshop worker. They were the best fighters, and seducing anyone was much easier back then. This made your safehouse effectively invincible.
4. Buy a printing press, then crack the intelligence HQ supercomputer using a single programmer grabbed off the street in a black suit and publish records in the guardian. This was the easiest way to grind juice back then, as each publication gave 50 juice to the entire LCS, including your three squads of agents and your founder, without having to use those characters.
5. Kidnap and convert four news anchors into sleepers.
6. Attack the Cable News and AM Radio stations to bring those issues to 100%.
7. Disband.

In fact this strategy was an expanded one designed to show multiple overpowered mechanics. A smaller but just as effective strategy would go like this:

1. Recruit sweatshop workers and sell expensive suits.
2. Kidnap and convert four news anchors, using the suit money to finance conversions.
3. Suicide a few squads of sweatshop workers into the AM Radio and Cable News stations.
4. Disband.

I nerfed the expensive suit strategy to death in my first release, recruiting agents and other powerful characters is now significantly more challenging, and publishing special editions no longer gives massive juice bonuses to the entire LCS. I also overhauled interrogation, and success in both that and seduction now depends more on the skills of your character, not the amount of money you spend.

I've been working on the sleeper issue for years. The formula is completely different now, and they're much weaker, but they now have more abilities and depth, and their own screen. Yet sleepers are still "The" way to win -- you just need more of them, more varied targets, and more skilled characters to convert them.

Now that sleepers have other abilities, it occurs to me that we could actually remove their passive ability to alter the issues, with the exception of the News Anchor and Radio Personality sleepers, who could have a unique ability to steadily liberalize those issues at a rate of one point a month per sleeper, killing the Conservative media over time by destroying their message from the inside. To compensate, strengthening the currently "secondary" abilities of most sleepers is perhaps called for -- and maybe removing the ability of non-sleeperizing dates and interrogations to provide a map of the person's workplace, in order to make this a sleeper-only ability?

Edit: Note that we would need to reduce the instability of issues (random movement, events) during disband if sleepers won't be there to constantly counteract any movement during this time. That's not too hard, however.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 02:48:23 pm by Jonathan S. Fox »
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Servant Corps

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #25 on: September 16, 2009, 02:53:19 pm »

I don't want to kill the instablity though, I like society going in different directions.

Anyway, you might have not known this Johnatan S. Fox (or you do, but approve of it), but I placed a nerf on AM Radio Personalites and Cable News Anchormen. When society turns liberal, these cultural sleepers lose their Cultural Sleeping power, and instead, can only affect LCS Popularity (like most sleepers, including janitors). It's a nerf, but a rather minor one.

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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #26 on: September 16, 2009, 03:10:09 pm »

I'm talking about taking out the instability only during disband -- the idea with disband is that it's an early way to say "I won, let's just get to the ending". You can't respond to a news story (and the news story isn't displayed anyway); right now, the effect still happens, and your sleepers deal with it. If sleepers can't, then disbanding is self-defeating, because society won't stay L+ even if it starts out that way.
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Servant Corps

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #27 on: September 16, 2009, 03:11:38 pm »

Ah alright then. Then I support getting rid of instability.
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Neonivek

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #28 on: September 16, 2009, 04:47:01 pm »

You don't have to remove instability. You just need to somehow give a clear indication of when Disbanding is appropriate.

What could happen is at certain point you could remove all the obsticles preventing America from becoming Liberal. (Take down the CCS, Allowed Liberals to Join the Supreme Court, and other stuff) and the country will just naturally slide towards Liberalism.

Though this is assuming there is never going to be an End Game. Such as a Conservative Revolt or Shadow President enduced martial law... Though in those situations it would be interesting if there was a way to reunite all the old members of the LCS, assuming they were still alive incase of sudden shifts.

LCS Leader: "Ten years ago we packed our things and rejoined society so that our actions wouldn't taint the liberal revolution with hatred and violence. We need to reunite because our job isn't done yet!"

Note: This is more of a muse then a suggestion
« Last Edit: September 16, 2009, 04:52:22 pm by Neonivek »
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Jonathan S. Fox

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Re: Flawless, perfectly safe winning strategy
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2009, 04:59:19 pm »

I'm not sure that I'm being clear. The instability I'm talking about means there is never an appropriate time to disband without sleepers. Completely random news events occur that shift issues substantially 20-40 points in one month, and public opinion also moves randomly over each month. If an issue is polarized, events reinforcing that viewpoint can't happen. For example, if nuclear power is banned (L+), you don't get meltdowns, only reports on how nuclear power would be safe -- thus, without the LCS, the issue will naturally lose its L+ status over time. The mechanics as they stand now cause issues to decay toward moderate, and only sleepers can change that post-disband.
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