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[delphonso]

It's worth noting that in Jewish cosmology, stars /were/ angels. Lucifer referred to Venus, yes, but was actually also Satan.

Satan and Lucifer refer to the same being in modern religion. In the Torah, if read as a historical document, Satan is a servant of God causing strife in peoples lives as punishment. Satan would also be a category of servants, not one specific angel. I think it was also a word given to describe other gods, too.

It all doesn't work out in the end - if God is omnipotent and Omnipresent, then an antagonist shouldn't exist.

[Eschar]

It's worth noting that in Jewish cosmology, stars /were/ angels. Lucifer referred to Venus, yes, but was actually also Satan.

Ah. The Isaiah passage is still incorrectly identified with Satan - possibly a variant of your note that the being was also used to refer to other gods, or rulers in this case.

[Reelya]

It's worth noting that in Jewish cosmology, stars /were/ angels. Lucifer referred to Venus, yes, but was actually also Satan.

Actually, that etmology literally only dates from the King James edition of the bible, in English. So as far as the name goes it's a pretty recent addition. Like a lot of things believed by Christians that has very little association with the actual bible.

[delphonso]

I could be wrong on that, for sure. It's been a while since my religious studies courses.

[Reelya]

Actually the whole thing is very tenuous, but there is a plausible link. It's still tenuous however, since the Hebrew word meaning Venus occurs exactly once in the Hebrew text, and it's this singular occurrence that got translated to the Latin 'Lucifer' in the King James Edition.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer

How you have fallen from heaven, morning star, son of the dawn! You have been cast down to the earth, you who once laid low the nations! You said in your heart, 'I will ascend to the heavens; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of Mount Zaphon. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High.' But you are brought down to the realm of the dead, to the depths of the pit. Those who see you stare at you, they ponder your fate: 'Is this the man who shook the earth and made kingdoms tremble, the man who made the world a wilderness, who overthrew its cities and would not let his captives go home?'

The term "morning star" here is what was translated as Lucifer. But this passage refers to the king of Babylon, and it's the only time in the whole bible the phrase morning star appears. The association with the devil is a pretty tenuous. Any support for this being a reference to the devil seems to have occurred no earlier than the 2nd century AD and/or New Testament passages. The Fallen Angel thing isn't even a Hebrew idea: more recent Christians retro-fitted their belief system on top of the Old Testament here.

Another similar one is the number of the beast, which is clearly just a reference to Nero, hence also a political jab. This is made clear since there was apparently some disagreement about whether the number of the beast was 666 or 616, but using the Hebrew letter/number system, these are actually the correct values for the two most common spellings of Nero's name. So the number of the beast passages are coded "fuck that Nero guy" passages, nothing about supernatural forces.

[LordBaal]

We didn't havw a blackout today. That migth be the work of lucifer?

[King Zultan]

So if I'm understanding everything right Satan is good and god is bad?

[Egan_BW]

No, they're both part of the same thing. And also bad.

[wierd]

Old-testament wise, satan is neutral, god is allmightly.


Satan just means "adversary".  He's the prosecution counsel, in charge of the trial over the fate of mankind, and individual humans in general.  He tempts humans to sin, and if they fail to resist, he makes his case that the human is not fit to enter heaven.


That's basically it.

This is why God and Satan are so buddy-buddy in the story of Job.


According to ancient Hebrew mysticism, Sheol, "the grave", was a temporary holding place divided into 3 areas. One for very unrighteous dead, one for the ambiguously righteous, and one for the righteous.  Each section was divided by an uncrossable river. (Descriptions given in first Enoch, apocryphal book)

Christ ended this area, when he descended into "hell" (ahem), and extracted the souls from there.  To be deemed worthy of that, he had to live a perfectly virtuous life, and all that noise, which is why the adversary tested him.

The modern notions of "The devil" are very much European constructions, created by the catholic church. Even the word "Hell" is a loanword of European origin. The most foundation they have, is the few quotations about the prince of the morning star, as previously cited.

Satan serves a purpose. That purpose is not at odds with God's purpose, at least in the old testament.  It is just at odds with human interest.  Unlike what most people seem to think is appropriate for a "Good" and "Just" god, the hebrew one is uninterested in placating every human want and vice, and seems to hold a much more rigid "no, this is how it must be" approach.  I tend to view that approach as less "Arbitrarily officious, totalitarian asshole", and more "Stickler for adhering to necessity, all i's dotted, all t's crossed, because that is how the nature of reality demands it must be, for things to keep working."  (where the nature of reality is defined by the cosmology of the religion.)

In that light, the necessity to test mankind is evident, the role of the adversary is seen as necessity, humans getting away with doing whatever they want cannot be permitted, and sinners cannot be allowed in heaven-- as stipulated.

[Eschar]

Aye, the problems seem to crop up once omnipotence and any level of benevolence are added to that mix - an omnigod doesn't have to play by the stipulated rules, especially since if he created everything like Christianity!Yahweh, he'd create the rules, the nature of heaven, sin, etc. as well. (Benevolence would ensure that he cared to change them in the first place. I think it's in there because it turns out most people don't want a Lovecraftian horror for a god.)

[MaxTheFox]

A friend of mine gifted me Stellaris with all the DLCs!

[LordBaal]

I would not call it a friend, that's a brother rigth there.

[TheSteppeWolf]

Isn't that hundreds of dollars? Wow, that's cool! I probably wouldn't be able to afford that myself... not much money to spend on games lol.

[Sirus]

A little over $200, yeah. That's a very good friend you've got there.

[Dunamisdeos]

I only have most of the DLC's, enjoy!