Bay 12 Games Forum

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3

Author Topic: An Ethical Game  (Read 4110 times)

Servant Corps

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
An Ethical Game
« on: September 22, 2009, 12:40:22 pm »

The concept of morality in video games is something that interests me, and something that interests many other game designers such as Jonathan S. Fox. But one thing stuck out at me when I read his blog post on the matter, critiquing KOTOR for its simplistic moral system.

Quote
It’s not just that the writing isn’t built to support real moral choices, but that the game mechanics penalize any sort of roleplaying beyond the simplest good or evil choice.

He went on to praise Mass Effect's moral system as a counterpart to KOTOR's system, but the criticsm hits it on the hit. What are these "real moral choices"?

Morality is "concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong; right or good conduct". By this very definition, morality is binary. There is only good, and there is only evil. There is no "middle ground". In this case, KOTOR really did offer you a real moral choice. For example, Jonathan S. Fox critiqued a mission where you could kill a prisoner or not. But...killing the prisoner is evil, not killing the prisoner is good. It's a stark and clear choice.

Jonathan S. Fox may instead be concerned with Ethics ("the philosophical study of moral values and rules"). Morality can be black and white, but Ethics exist as a way to study morality, to determine what is black and what is white. This can be backed up by Fox's praise of Mass Effect's moral system. Its system had a Paragon ('good') and a Renegade ('evil') scale, and that you can end up being both. You get Paragon points for doing Paragon actions and Renegade points for doing Renegade actions.

Yet, in the end, you are still offered two choices, you could either be a Paragon or a Renegade. The only difference is that the game does not say which one is 'good' or 'bad', so instead of having one morality system you have to follow, you can choose from two: Paragon or Renegade. It is up to you to decide when it is approriate to consult one morality system over that of another.

At the same time...you are not offered other choices, like, I don't know, working with the Big Bad because you honestly think he might be right. I am okay with having a limited amount of choices in video games (after all, it would be impossible for one to program in lots of choices...except via resort to randomization), but you still have in the end two choices. I prefer having a variety of choices, not being told to choose from A or B.

Since I support having a variety of choices, I support the concept of "Factions", having lots of factions for one player to choose from, and each faction remaining just a tad different for the player to really prefer one faction over another. I'm not sure if Jonathan S. Fox would prefer that though, because having lots of factions only simulate politics, not ethics. Jonathan S. Fox would likely prefer a system where ethical delimmas exist, not a system where one has to read annoying Faction tracts and decide which tract sounds better than the others.

So, allow me to present a ethical game that would hopefully sastify both my view and Jonathan S. Fox's view. One where factions represent ethical systems.

It's the far off future, and you are a new student over at Elite Liberal Univeristy. The bad news is that Elite Liberal University is in the middle of a cold war. Due to the protection of "intellectual freedom", professors are able to promote a variety of ethical theories, each one claiming to be the only superior ethical theory out there. Each Professor view himself/herself/itself as the only true promoter of morality, and view everyone else as either misguided or evil themselves. You, as a student desiring good grades, has been pulled into the relam of univeristy politics, and sent on missions involving interrogation and murder in order to help one ethical system destroy all the others.

There are a variety of ethical systems, and each Professor will give you a low-down on how to follow this system. If you follow this system, you make the Professor happy, and they'll be more willing to work with you. If you don't follow this system, the Professor may get angry at you, and may decide to put you on his hit list.

An example of an moral delimma would be this: You are following the Kantian Faction, which believes in the ideas of Immanuel Kant. Kant believed that people should not lie. You are protecting an important Kantian VIP at your house. The doorbell rings. It's a member from the Nietzsche Ubermensch. They're looking for the VIP. To kill. What do you do?

If you say "You got the wrong house, The VIP is not here", you'll save the VIP, but both the VIP and the Kantian Faction would be upset. You lied. Lying is morally wrong. If you say, "The VIP is right here," the Kantian VIP will die, but both the Kantian Faction and the VIP would be happy that you told the truth and thus continue to follow the ideas of Immanuel Kant. What is more important, protecting the VIP or upholding the aims and ideals of the Kantian Faction?

Well, what if you set up an alarm system, like a bell? When the Nietzsche Ubermensch rings the doorbell, you ring the bell, letting the VIP know that the Nietzsche Ubermensch have arrived. The VIP will flee out of the window, and thus will be out of the house. When you answer the door, you can safely say to the Ubermensch that the VIP is not in the house, because he isn't in the house. The VIP survive, and you did not tell a lie. Clearly, a moral desicion that is the best of both worlds.

The gimmick of having various ethical systems duke it out allows for contrived moral delimmas to occur, and forces people to decide what moral system they themselves prefer, or even if they actually prefer any of the moral systems (or instead become an "ethical relativist"). You have to seriously think of the consquences of your action, lest they violate the moral and ethical code of your faction.

But there must be a problem with this game. What is it?
Logged
I have left Bay12Games to pursue a life of non-Bay12Games. If you need to talk to me, please email at me at igorhorst at gmail dot com.

Rashilul

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2009, 12:45:58 pm »

Interesting.

Quote
But there must be a problem with this game. What is it?
Not very mainstream and hard to make?
Logged

chaoticag

  • Bay Watcher
  • All Natural Pengbean
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2009, 12:54:41 am »

I seem to notice that games either make things easier on you as you become good, or make things equal so you can enjoy both sides equally. My personal definition of evil is a temptation that is deadly and hard to resist, so evil should tempt your character in game with in game rewards. The concept is, "being good is easy, but being evil is easier".

Maybe we should get rid of prompts; say that you see a kid being bullied, but you are given a "HELP, DON'T HELP, MOCK" response which screams "You must be moral now!". Instead, you see a kid being bullied, and decide that it isn't worth your time because there is no reward, when all of a sudden you get hit by negative karma because the bully accidentally killed or maimed the kid and you did nothing. This is better, because we rely on prompts outlining the choices you make, or acting chaotic stupid to get precious alinement points. The whole point of a moral choice is that you make it subconsiously, like MGS which gives you a penalty when you kill too many people, never mind that they try to kill you (Not that it crops up too much, and its pretty subtle).
Logged

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2009, 01:57:06 am »

Subtle?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Logged

chaoticag

  • Bay Watcher
  • All Natural Pengbean
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2009, 02:13:18 am »

Subtle?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Never got that far in that game, shame I only played MGS4 to the end, makes me feel lame.
Logged

Vester

  • Bay Watcher
  • [T_WORD:AWE-INSPIRING:bloonk]
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 02:45:59 am »

Subtle?
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I loved that sequence. It made me hate myself.
Logged
Quote
"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 02:58:50 am »

Wait, I just bothered to read the OP, and wow.

Quote
So, allow me to present a ethical game that would hopefully sastify both my view and Jonathan S. Fox's view. One where factions represent ethical systems.

It's the far off future, and you are a new student over at Elite Liberal Univeristy. The bad news is that Elite Liberal University is in the middle of a cold war. Due to the protection of "intellectual freedom", professors are able to promote a variety of ethical theories, each one claiming to be the only superior ethical theory out there. Each Professor view himself/herself/itself as the only true promoter of morality, and view everyone else as either misguided or evil themselves. You, as a student desiring good grades, has been pulled into the relam of univeristy politics, and sent on missions involving interrogation and murder in order to help one ethical system destroy all the others.

That's an INCREDIBLY hostile environment for a student! It honestly doesn't matter what they're ethics are, willfully participating in this 'university', taking these people seriously and humoring their fanaticism would, in my opinion, be so damaging to the idea of respect and tolerance that it would be blatantly evil to engage in it at all. Especially since you're doing it for the purpose of good grades! Jesus Christ, how much more selfish can you get? The only correct moral choice, would be to not go to the university at all and let the radicals kill eachother without you.
Logged

deadlycairn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 03:55:42 am »

I think chaoticag is on the right idea for a 'promptless' moral choice.

I took it even further, in my hypothetical plans for a mindscrew/horror roguelike. The sole purpose was to mess with with the players emotions/ethics. To do so, various prompts/messages would appear/disappear over the course of the game as the player was playing, leading them to make horrible choices, and then punishing them for it later. Bad choices appear good at first, as do good choices. Then suddenly, its ten minutes later, your up to your knees in half eaten orphan corpses - orphans you'd tried to protect. Pretty sure the game only works in theory though.
Logged
Quote from: Ampersand
Also, Xom finds people that chug unidentified fluids pleasing.
Quote from: Servant Corps
Ignorance of magic does not give scientists the power to resist fireballs.

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 03:57:52 am »

So your idea is to give the player misleading choices?
Logged

deadlycairn

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2009, 04:09:43 am »

Partially, I suppose.

The story (unknown to the player at first) is that you are a mutant, slowing degenerating into a mindless monster - with a taste for flesh. Basically, you'd go from scenario to scenario, running from cops and worse things way above your power, and bumping into lots of innocent weak little civilians. At first, you have lots of non-lethal options and ways to solve puzzles (with the occasional mind-screw like saying - you feel hungry- over a corpse). As the game progresses, you'll be placed into situations where it seems ideal to use these non-lethal methods - except you cant. As an example, you originally have a tail lash move. This can stun, punt or kill enemies. Later on, you are in an area with lots of enemies blocking the exit, and you need to leave, fast. So you decide to punt them - except it skips straight to the maximum damage option, decapitating that innocent orphan, and sealing the deal with a -you feel hungry- message. If you die, the screen fades to red, and x turns pass, with you waking up in a random area surrounded by corpses. Finally, the more morally reprehensible things you do (killing, eating the corpses for strength etc) the more powerful the 'other' mind gets, and you start to just randomly attack nearby enemies.

Like I said, I'm not sure how well this could be implemented; it was just an hypothetical way to do real horror in a roguelike, with added 'I'm losing my mind' atmosphere.
Logged
Quote from: Ampersand
Also, Xom finds people that chug unidentified fluids pleasing.
Quote from: Servant Corps
Ignorance of magic does not give scientists the power to resist fireballs.

JoshuaFH

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2009, 04:35:58 am »

If executed properly, that sounds like it would be a great psychological horror.
Logged

TheNewerMartianEmperor

  • Bay Watcher
  • ♥She'd cut you up!♥
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #11 on: September 23, 2009, 05:23:48 am »

How many games actually have good psychological horror? Also, it kind of reminds me of the Shadow, from wraith: the oblivion.
Logged
Once tried to conquer Earth, and succeeded! Too bad it got really, really boring, really, really fast.

One day, we shall all look back on this, and laugh. Sorry about the face, by the way, and the legs, and the eyes, and the arms. In fact, sorry 'bout the whole body.

Vester

  • Bay Watcher
  • [T_WORD:AWE-INSPIRING:bloonk]
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2009, 05:35:42 am »

I did like silent hill 2, because it was horrifying, psychological, and had a great story...
Logged
Quote
"Land of song," said the warrior bard, "though all the world betray thee - one sword at least thy rights shall guard; one faithful harp shall praise thee."

Muz

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2009, 07:04:00 am »

Heh, to the OP, I'm not sure. It looks more like a parody of ethics, like pointing out how ethical theories can go wrong. It sounds like something Chris Crawford would make. While Chris does have interesting ideas, they're just not... fun. I'm sure some philosophy majors would salute you for doing it, but it just won't appeal that much outside the philosophy buff community. The best you could end up is something like Alter Ego.

It's interesting, but you have to make it a little more mainstream. It sounds a little too 'technical' as it is. Like some kind of ethical prototype. Make it appeal more, give a real life situation. "Lie or be partly responsible for someone's death" seems a little extreme.
Logged
Disclaimer: Any sarcasm in my posts will not be mentioned as that would ruin the purpose. It is assumed that the reader is intelligent enough to tell the difference between what is sarcasm and what is not.

Jonathan S. Fox

  • Bay Watcher
    • View Profile
    • http://www.jonathansfox.com/
Re: An Ethical Game
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2009, 11:05:39 am »

I just wanted to drop a note here: I wouldn't have seen this post if not for the fact that traffic on my blog mysteriously tripled yesterday.  ;D

I would define a "real moral choice" for the purpose of my post to be something on which two players would sincerely disagree on regarding the best course of action. Politics and philosophy are certainly both great sources for these kinds of choices, which are occasionally, but not frequently, seen in games.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3