Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[EuchreJack]

Yeah, that's kinda what I meant several posts ago.

Also, to clarify:

C+: Unions are no longer allowed to limit the rights of workers and businesses.

...Is intentionally vague.  It can mean many things, from unions being restricted at the weakest, all the way up to "anyone contemplating forming a union is shot" at the strongest.  From a gameplay standpoint, you'd no longer see union members except maybe as rare encounters in public places (representing those few people still fighting for the right to unionize).

[Conservative Swine]

C+: Laws are in place to discourage unions being formed, protecting free trade.

This should be C, perhaps an outright ban. My home state has a ban on a teachers union and I don't consider this a C+ or C++ state.

C+ could be union organizers and labor protester's facing prosecution or intimidation from the government/company authorities.

[lastofthelight]

I would make that moderate or C, since you don't tend to see strong unions unless a government is already fairly liberal.

For C+ I'd have something like: Slavery is normal and accepted, with most workers receiving no pay.

[Zangi]

You have to spin it in a positive Conservative viewpoint though.

How is the CCS going to justify slavery by outright calling it slavery?  You need a viewpoint that makes it look good.

I would make that moderate or C, since you don't tend to see strong unions unless a government is already fairly liberal.

For C+ I'd have something like: Slavery is normal and accepted, with most workers receiving no pay.

This example is from the LCS perspective when it gets C+.

This should be the Conservative perspective:
C+: Employees do not have to worry about food, wages and housing as everything they need is provided to them.

[Andir]

Can someone explain why slavery is considered a Conservative stance? 

[Necaladun]

Can someone explain why slavery is considered a Conservative stance? 

Slavery is deprivation of liberty. Therefore, Liberals oppose slavery. Therefore, Conservatives support slavery.

The other Logical Fallicy Correct Theory, is that Conservatives wish for the good old days, and are obviously talking about the days when slavery was a-ok.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

Can someone explain why slavery is considered a Conservative stance? 

Slavery is deprivation of liberty. Therefore, Liberals oppose slavery. Therefore, Conservatives support slavery.

The other Logical Fallicy Correct Theory, is that Conservatives wish for the good old days, and are obviously talking about the days when slavery was a-ok.

So I completely agree with this theory, but it only really works for Liberal Crime Squad. See the extended version of this argument in the CCS is under development thread.

[lastofthelight]

Slavery is considered a conservative stance because one of the hallmarks of American conservatism is economic survival of the fittest (lase fair capitalism) and an extreme distaste for regulation. This once (not in our lifetimes, really) played out in the form of what was essentially wage-slavery of a large segment of the American populace, followed eventually by the formation of unions which balanced things out.

Today we have stuff like minimum wage laws and various things to protect the worker in place, so in any real world its not likely that conservatism in our country could lead to 'slavery' but you can satirize the battles of liberals fighting for 'worker rights' verses conservatives fighting against 'regulation of the free market' to imply that such deregulation will ultimately lead us all back into wage-slavery.

[EuchreJack]

You have to spin it in a positive Conservative viewpoint though.

How is the CCS going to justify slavery by outright calling it slavery?  You need a viewpoint that makes it look good.

I would make that moderate or C, since you don't tend to see strong unions unless a government is already fairly liberal.

For C+ I'd have something like: Slavery is normal and accepted, with most workers receiving no pay.

This example is from the LCS perspective when it gets C+.

This should be the Conservative perspective:
C+: Employees do not have to worry about food, wages and housing as everything they need is provided to them.

But, giving employees all the food, wages and housing they need is a Liberal notion!  Thus, Slavery is Liberal!  Conservatives only want the employees for work, if they die tommorow from starvation is of no concern to them.

[Andir]

You have to spin it in a positive Conservative viewpoint though.

How is the CCS going to justify slavery by outright calling it slavery?  You need a viewpoint that makes it look good.

I would make that moderate or C, since you don't tend to see strong unions unless a government is already fairly liberal.

For C+ I'd have something like: Slavery is normal and accepted, with most workers receiving no pay.

This example is from the LCS perspective when it gets C+.

This should be the Conservative perspective:
C+: Employees do not have to worry about food, wages and housing as everything they need is provided to them.

But, giving employees all the food, wages and housing they need is a Liberal notion!  Thus, Slavery is Liberal!  Conservatives only want the employees for work, if they die tomorrow from starvation is of no concern to them.

Correct, Slavery is more a Liberal idea (more communist actually) than it is Conservative.  Conservatism is more about self improvement, self worth, and I'd argue almost isolationist ("I'll do it myself".)  The most Conservative businessman is one who allows people to work for their money, not take their money away.  Conservatism is about making it on your own and allowing people to make it on their own.  A "Polar" Conservative would watch their competitor fail then offer them a job working for them if they were good competition (ie: a good person), otherwise they could care less if they die.  It's survival of the fittest.  They aren't going to enslave that person to suit their own success.  That violates the self improvement and self worth of the enslaved.  It doesn't help them be any stronger for themselves if you provide for them.

Edit:  I guess to summarize, Conservatism is about individual rights, not individual entitlements.  Nobody says conservatism is guaranteed success (free labor is pretty much guaranteed success if you ask me...)

[lastofthelight]

I strongly disagree. Slavery has historically been anything BUT a liberal notion, and I say this as someone who has studied it (though only briefly) in a college history course. From the days of ancient rome to 1800's america, liberals have clashed very violently with conservatives over the issue of slavery. (Though I'll cynically note that such usually only pops up in hard enough economic times that slavery is costing people paying jobs.)

The essential nature of slavery is not 'giving people free stuff' - that could be satirized in an L+ welfare state society, but the notion of 'individual rights' and 'self improvement' combined with 'do whatever you want' and 'we won't regulate the wealthy'. Liberals, for all their faults, have a consistent human rights stand, which is never a major platform of conservatism.

[jasonred79]

No one supports slavery.
BUT... how about "close to slavery"? Like sweatshops and child labour and poor working conditions and all that similiar stuff that doesn't protect the worker and works in favor of the employer? Is that liberal or conservative?
hmm. Protecting employee rights SEEMS liberal to me... I could be mistaken.

[Jonathan S. Fox]

In LCS, we already have child labor at C+. I wouldn't do the same for CCS since virtually all modern conservatives would likely find children in factories to be deplorable, and putting kids in factories is not much a cause to fight for.

On the other hand, a welfare state where some people are "no income workers" whose entire earnings go into paying their taxes to support state-provided living benefits, like a house and free food, that sounds like your L+ analogue to slavery to me. Stick slavery-like conditions somewhere at L+, just due to extremely exaggerated levels of tax and welfare, then let the CCS fight against those conditions.

[Zangi]

In LCS, we already have child labor at C+. I wouldn't do the same for CCS since virtually all modern conservatives would likely find children in factories to be deplorable, and putting kids in factories is not much a cause to fight for.

On the other hand, a welfare state where some people are "no income workers" whose entire earnings go into paying their taxes to support state-provided living benefits, like a house and free food, that sounds like your L+ analogue to slavery to me. Stick slavery-like conditions somewhere at L+, just due to extremely exaggerated levels of tax and welfare, then let the CCS fight against those conditions.

By Jah...  I love how in the LCS/CCS world...  Slavery can be construed as both a Liberal and Conservative thing with such extreme perspectives...

[Andir]

I think you are all trying to create Capitalist Crime Squad, not Conservative Crime Squad.

A true conservative wouldn't send out goon squads to enforce their ideals.  They'd just sit back, do their thing and say, "I told you so!"

Slavery doesn't even make sense for a conservative standpoint.  Why would a conservative opt in to supporting someone else?  It's a liberal goal to give everyone a job, even if it means not paying them to do it.  As long as it supports the greater wealth.

The conservative stand on human rights is that everyone has the right, but you are not entitled to it.  Take healthcare that's hot right now.  You have the right to obtain Healthcare, but you are paying for it yourself.  If that's a "human rights" violation in your eyes, then sure, but it's more of a resource allocation issue than anything.  You can't always win, but you have the right to try.  That's conservative.

To be honest, a CCS game would be the most boring thing on the planet because it's just not as ridiculous as the liberal stand of feeding the entire country with a single jar of peanut butter.