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Author Topic: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition  (Read 11250 times)

King Zultan

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #255 on: May 27, 2022, 02:17:10 am »

Seems like you'd have to be really bad at your job for you to be able to bomb one of your own planes.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #256 on: May 27, 2022, 04:05:39 am »

WWII bombers flew in immense tight formations, and flying straight and level for the attack run gave AA crews enough time to get a solid firing solution. So planes woukd etart jinking as soon as rhe bombs were gone. Have the lower plane drop early, or the upper plane drop late, and jinking into a bomb becomes far too possible.
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Starver

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #257 on: May 27, 2022, 05:08:31 am »

It appears that both planes (the one in shot and the one the shot is taken by) are mid-bomb. The former has at least two (or probably three, though the lowest could be a ground feature without checking the undigitised stock) visible bombs in a string that's probably got more on the way. The latter has four bombs, at least, from just released down to potentially the earlier one(s) in the whisp of cloud (though I think everything is higher above them than would allow for that).

Hard to tell what bomb-size they are, but typically the B-17 would carry 4x1000lb or 8/9x500lb bombs (or even more smaller ones, or a mix). I was initially inclined to believe the "bomb verification" photo has been triggered as the last of four of the heavier ones is dropped, for 'pre-impact' assessment of what was being dropped and where, but in checking I was right about the plane-type I came across this photo which is almost certainly the same incident and suggests more bombs and a 'shutter click' per release... edit: no, wait, I got fooled by the photo-flip, it's the exact same shot, and its subtext actually says 1000lbers, now I bother to read the extra info... so I thought I was wrong, but I was wrong, I was right!

Anyway, without following up the references, my best guess is that the "combat box" formation that the 'flying hedgehogs' used to merge their various arcs of defensive fire on any Luftwaffe attacks, involved a slightly staggered and offset multi-layer set of 'wings', and in the heat of reaching the mission target one or more plane from one or other 'levels' of the box has gone a little too fast/slow and/or adjusted the heading a little (perhaps at the behest of bomb-aimers striving for the exact same ground-feature in their Norden bomb-sight) or even a 'same wing' plane doing this while not noticing a few dozen feet vertical drift up and/or down from the mission plan and concentrating on avoiding wingtip clashes.

Given the quantity of bombs dropped by the number of simultaneous planes sent over so many missions, I'd be surprised if this sort of thing didn't happen a few times more (plus basic direct mid-air contact to various degrees of damage, at times of evasion if not during the supposedly steady bomb-aim/drop phase), with or without recoverable photographic evidence/testimony.


(Leaving this here under the "Reporter" remit, as I think my small amount of confirmatory research counts for that, even if it obviously aint Ukraine/fast-jet/current-day/etc, and no doubt a more thorough analysis on this same incident has been done by countless others across the nine whole or partial decades in which it was possible to do so.)
« Last Edit: May 27, 2022, 05:17:01 am by Starver »
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EuchreJack

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #258 on: May 27, 2022, 09:35:58 am »

Are we sure the WW2 photo is genuine?

The photo quality of the bomber is quite good for the time period, and the silhouette of the bomb seems strangely uniform.

Madman198237

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #259 on: May 27, 2022, 09:56:00 am »

Yes, it's genuine. The bomb's silhouette is uniform because the bomb is completely symmetrical and is in shadow. The image quality is exactly what you might expect from a nicely digitized WWII-era photographic film.

That absolutely did happen on occasion, it was pretty easy to just drift a bit sideways out of formation and end up below a bomber that might be a couple hundred feet above you.
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Il Palazzo

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #260 on: May 27, 2022, 10:05:25 am »

Are we sure the WW2 photo is genuine?
Seems to be. It's featured in a number of wiki articles, and at least one aviation museum's webpage. Wiki sources NARA and the FDR library for the photo. There's at least one more photo of the incident too, from a different angle.

and its subtext actually says 1000lbers
The combat box article has a source claiming it was a 500lb bomb.
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Starver

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #261 on: May 27, 2022, 10:55:03 am »

Well, from just a brief scan around of available stock/museum pictures, there are more similarities (particularly the fin profile) to something like the AN-M64 500lb GP bomb of that era than any of the 1000lbers I can find (which also tend to verge upon the general blockbuster 'flat-ended cylinder' design, probably due to being unable to spare length for fairings). The arming-cable loop-lugs also look about the right scale upon the upper of the bomb-body of the one that is clearest in the shot. But there are funny differences that could be just manufacturing variations across a long history of rapid production and incremental redesign of the ultimate 'throwaway' product with such a high turnover of manafacturevand use.

So maybe I was actually right that I was wrong, and wrong that I was wrong and therefore that I was rightfully right, right?

But I'd defer to an actual expert. I'm not about to go correcting either wiki source, myself, knowing virtually nothing about the subject. (But now having an interesting browser history. Did you know that the Cooking Off time for the more modern Mk82 500lb bomb, which of course looks nothing like the above in any useful manner although is one of the most common configurable munitions of its size in the modern era, has been established to be 2.5 minutes?)
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brewer bob

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #262 on: May 27, 2022, 12:18:46 pm »

An independent report says there's "enough evidence to conclude that Moscow is inciting genocide and committing atrocities intended to destroy the Ukrainian people", CNN reports.

The legal report, signed by more than 30 leading legal scholars and genocide experts, accuses the Russian state of violating several articles of the United Nations Genocide Convention. It warns there is a serious and imminent risk of genocide in Ukraine, backing the accusations with a long list of evidence including examples of mass killings of civilians, forced deportations and dehumanizing anti-Ukrainian rhetoric used by top Russian officials.

[...]

Under the UN Genocide Convention, its signatories have a legal obligation to prevent genocide -- and the report is urging the international community to act.

"We have no time at all, we believe that there is a very serious risk of genocide," Ibrahim said. "Every country that is a signatory to the Genocide Convention, and that's 151 countries including the Russian Federation, every country has to do whatever it can to put a stop to this, otherwise they will also be in breach of the convention."

The full report by New Lines Institute for Strategy and Policy and Raoul Wallenberg Centre for Human Rights can be viewed/downloaded here.
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EuchreJack

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #263 on: May 27, 2022, 12:37:40 pm »

Thanks for the info.

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Re: War in Ukraine News Update - Junior Reporter Edition
« Reply #264 on: May 27, 2022, 02:17:19 pm »

Are we sure the WW2 photo is genuine?

The photo quality of the bomber is quite good for the time period, and the silhouette of the bomb seems strangely uniform.
https://ww2db.com/photo.php?list=sp&sp=series&image_id=17715
Yeah it's legit sadly, they're from the USA national archives
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