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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 4752285 times)

Naturegirl1999

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116385 on: September 17, 2019, 08:47:07 pm »

*reads*

I just kinda give no fucks about economics when the world climates are rapidly changing and will probably kill my sons early.
I agree this is a problem. Unfortunatly money is all the powerful care about, so we need to somehow convince them to forgo short term profits of destroying the planet via burning fossil fuels, to long term investments, like renewable energy that doesnít pollute the planet. I agree that the environment should be protected, but nothing will get done if the powers that be donít see profit

Wizard of Manaia

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116386 on: September 17, 2019, 09:22:07 pm »

We are the ones who are destroying it. Do not shift the responsibility onto others when it is ourselves we must look at.
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116387 on: September 17, 2019, 09:24:29 pm »

Thereís scale, though. I donít think me running my AC all day, while guilt-inducing, is quite the same as the energy sectorís reliance on fossil fuels over renewables, as one example, or Bolsonaro allowing ranchers to slash-and-burn the Amazon for another, among many, many more.
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Look, we need to raise a psychopath who will murder God, we have no time to be spending on cooking.

Wizard of Manaia

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116388 on: September 17, 2019, 09:30:07 pm »

Where does your power come from.
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hector13

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116389 on: September 17, 2019, 09:35:06 pm »

Well done, but again, I am one person. Whether or not I had the AC on, or abandoned my existence in society in favour of chasing deer in the woods and using their leavings for warmth, the power is being generated, mostly via fossil fuel combustion.
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116390 on: September 17, 2019, 10:56:34 pm »

My take:

Society at large will not allow me to abandon modern excess.

I would have gone off into the woods ages ago, if that was an option.  Modern society actively patrols wilderness areas to prevent this. Modern society enforces borders to prevent human migration patterns, to keep people out, and also, keep people in. 

Give me the option to stop consuming, and I would take it.  But-- while being mandated to consume, being derided for that consumption? That's bullshit.  Those that mandate the consumption need to stop mandating it first.
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116391 on: September 18, 2019, 12:55:31 am »

We are the ones who are destroying it. Do not shift the responsibility onto others when it is ourselves we must look at.

The grim truth is that the responsibility is others'. I could not in my lifetime do even a tiny fraction of the damage fossil fuel lobbies in the US and elsewhere have done to the climate. The only actual option most individuals have is to rally for real institutional change, and IMO it's a critical responsibility, but as long as governments and large corporations are propping up fossil energy and turning a blind eye to destructive manufacturing, there's nothing a member of the capitalist plebiscite can do.

I'd love it if I could make a meaningful difference by myself. It'd be fantastic. But all I can do is try to make my government do things that do make a difference.



It's not even a question of wierd's "the world won't let me stop consuming" - you totally can. No-one forces you to use electricity. No-one's stopping you growing a ton of vegetables in your back garden. No-one's forcing you to eat meat, particularly beef. There is no reason you can't massively slash your carbon footprint by dropping nearly all modern amenities. It doesn't have to be absolutely everything or nothing - that's a shallow excuse. There are plenty of ways to stop consuming.

It's just both rather unpleasant and almost completely futile.
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I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Tu jee, veerey / Toofano se lad ke [Fight, brave one / Fight those internal storms and]
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wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116392 on: September 18, 2019, 01:08:34 am »

Arx--

You would be surprised.  The requirement to have capital (specifically to pay taxes) necessitates gainful employment, and that necessitates the need for keeping certain appearances, which are only realistically possible with modern convenience in developed countries.

Failure to pay taxes means ending up in situations where you CANNOT grow vegetables, because you have no legit place to grow them.  Everyone is out for their slice of flesh, and failure to deliver, will end up with you being less than a non-person.   

It takes a significant amount of real-estate to reliably sustain a single person if they are going for self-sufficiency.  That kind of real-estate is not available without causing a massive degradation of the commons, and the social infrastructure is not yet so horrible as to enable that. (The common concensus is that you need between 5 and 10 acres for self sufficiency)


For the same reasons people cannot just pack up and move to get better jobs, and end up trapped in slums, we cannot simply drop modern convenience while these little catch-22s are in effect.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 01:22:00 am by wierd »
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116393 on: September 18, 2019, 01:23:53 am »

Then wash yourself in cold water. If you suddenly feel an urge to shave, buy a straight razor once and maintain it. Soap for personal washing is largely unnecessary; you can get by using only a small amount. For clothes, you only need to heat a limited amount of water, and you can wash by hand; again, soap is something you don't need to use a ton of.

During the water crisis here (we were rationed to to ~50 litres per person per day [this sounds like a lot; the average person can blow through it in minutes]) I had a colleague who cycled to work every day and took only extremely short cold showers every other day. His personal hygiene was fantastic (I sat in meetings in un-air-conditioned rooms in African summer heat with him, I should know).

It's entirely possible to live practically off-grid. You don't have to become a cave man. You can maintain the same standard of appearance and hygiene. It's just hard, tedious, unpleasant work.

I don't think you're unreasonable for not doing it, but I don't think you're being honest with yourself about your reason for not doing it.

E: I guess this fits pretty well into the die nobly/live humbly dichotomy, viz. it's easy to die for a cause, it's hard to live for it. You want to die nobly for your cause, but you're not willing to put in the hard yards to live humbly for your cause.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 01:25:45 am by Arx »
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I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Tu jee, veerey / Toofano se lad ke [Fight, brave one / Fight those internal storms and]
Tu jeet, veerey / Zakhmo se bhid kar bhi tu [Win, brave one / Weather those wounds and]
Firse uthega yaara [Rise once again]

Mel lives again! Fight monsters; fight crime; fight compound interest...

wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116394 on: September 18, 2019, 01:35:57 am »

Not exactly;  I view that it is entirely possible to have some aspects of modern convenience if you are able to supply the energy needs for that convenience yourself. 

Access to materials is the killer.  To maintain equipment, you need both tools and raw materials.  The raw materials are the problem. 


But again, you are overlooking some important things about the US vis-a-vis African nations.  We have "County health departments" which literally mandate living conditions.
https://lucascountyhealth.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/01/housing-regulations_3.pdf

(For an example.)

Quote
SECTION 4.0 Ė MINIMUM SANITATION STANDARDS No person shall occupy as owner-occupant, or let to another for occupancy any dwelling or dwelling unit, for the purpose of living, sleeping, cooking or eating therein, which does not comply with the following requirements: 4.

1)Every  dwelling  unit  shall  contain  a  kitchen  sink  which  is  properly connected  to  a  water  and  sewer  system  approved  by  the  Health Commissioner. 4.
2)Every dwelling unit shall contain a room which affords privacy to a person within  such  room  and  which  is  equipped  with  a  flush  water  closet,  a lavatory and a bathtub or shower, connected to a water and sewer system approved by the Health Commissioner. 4.
3)Every sink, lavatory, bathtub, or shower shall be properly connected with hot and cold water lines.  The hot water lines shall be connected to a hot water  heating  facility  of  adequate  size  which  provides  at all  times  a temperature of not less than 120į F. 4.
4)Every dwelling and dwelling unit shall be supplied with a potable water supply.  There shall be adequate water supply and pressure at all installed hot and cold water outlets.
4.
5)All plumbing shall be properly installed and maintained in good working condition, free from defects, leaks, and obstructions. 4.
6)Every dwelling unit shall be supplied adequate rubbish storage facilities, type and location of which are acceptable to the Health Commissioner and shall be disposed of in a manner acceptable to the Health Commissioner. 4.
7)Every dwelling unit shall have adequate garbage disposal facilities, type and location of which are acceptable to the Health Commissioner and shall be disposed of in a manner acceptable to the Health Commissioner. 4.
8)Every dwelling shall have a safe unobstructed means of egress leading to a safe and open outdoor space at ground level. 4.
9)Every habitable room shall have at least one window or skylight facing directly  to  the  outdoors.    The  minimum  total  window  area,  for  every habitable room is to be 10 percent of the floor area of such room.
EXPLANATION:  Whenever the only window in a room is a skylight type  window  in  the  top  of  such  room,  the  total  window  area  of  such skylight is to equal at least 15 percent of the total floor area of such room.

(See how you are mandated to keep a hot water heater, and to keep it running, and that it must be attached to a water and sewer system that is inspected and approved by the health authority. This forces you to have to engage with the society, and thus to play the employment, and consumption game.)

This includes rural areas.

« Last Edit: September 18, 2019, 01:47:18 am by wierd »
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116395 on: September 18, 2019, 01:50:55 am »

I skimmed that PDF and I didn't see anything saying the police will arrest you for not switching on your lights, not using a computer, not using your outlets.

Like I said; no-one's forcing you to use this stuff. It has to be available. You don't have to use it. It's a bit depressing keeping water you nearly never use at 120F, but it also doesn't take much to maintain a temperature like that in a properly-insulated tank, or if you have a heat pump.

You can meet the sanitation requirements with cold water, elbow grease, and less-than-industrial quantities of soap. You will have to buy stuff to fix the house when it physically breaks, yes. That doesn't invalidate everything else. You're still hanging onto the all-or-nothing mindset.

If you were raising a child or something it'd be different, but you're no more going to become a non-person for living an absolute baseline lifestyle than you are for not seeing a doctor about your suspected tumours.
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I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Tu jee, veerey / Toofano se lad ke [Fight, brave one / Fight those internal storms and]
Tu jeet, veerey / Zakhmo se bhid kar bhi tu [Win, brave one / Weather those wounds and]
Firse uthega yaara [Rise once again]

Mel lives again! Fight monsters; fight crime; fight compound interest...

wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116396 on: September 18, 2019, 01:57:54 am »

I know you are not this obstinate arx, but really.


If you fail to meet the living conditions with your home, they will condemn and demolish it, then give you the bill for that demolition.  First though, they will fine you obscene amounts to compel you to comply.  (As pointed out, simply turning off the hot water heater is a violation. They explicitly state "At all times.") 

I get that you are not used to that level of litigious bullshit, but that is one thing the US is pretty well known for.  They can, and will, go after you if they catch wind that you are not in compliance.  To live off grid, you have to have certified equipment, and that means having certified service performed on it. Unless you happen to hold multiple certifications and can then service your own equipment, and can then pay for a state examiner to verify your work, you are still going to have to deal with the social construct, and get dinged financially. 

it is absurdly difficult to go off-grid in the US.
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116397 on: September 18, 2019, 02:18:58 am »

??? Once again, I am not telling you to sever your electricity connection. I am not telling you to withdraw from society. The opposite, in fact. I don't know where you're getting that from. You don't need to use it. Don't switch on the lights. Don't use appliances more than absolutely necessary to live. Resist the urge to press the buttons.

You can, right here right now, make a major shift towards abandoning modern excess. Turn off your lights. Turn off your PC and appliances. Stop playing with all that tech and code you love so much. Start doing things by hand. Stop using your hot taps. Stop using a phone except when you have to for work.

One last time, for good measure: this can all be done in compliance with local laws. Your house will continue to be connected to a state-sanctioned water and electricity supply and sewer. You will still have hot water on tap. You will still have heating equipment. Your house will continue to pass inspections. You will just no longer be using nearly as much electricity, and hopefully be using less water.

If you're not willing to do that, then what you want isn't to "abandon modern excess". It's to continue living in the same fashion, just with the electricity under your direct control. And if you want that because it's more sustainable, you should instead of wanting to become a hermit in the woods want the US to stop wastefully propping up fossil fuels and switch to renewables or nuclear.
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I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Tu jee, veerey / Toofano se lad ke [Fight, brave one / Fight those internal storms and]
Tu jeet, veerey / Zakhmo se bhid kar bhi tu [Win, brave one / Weather those wounds and]
Firse uthega yaara [Rise once again]

Mel lives again! Fight monsters; fight crime; fight compound interest...

wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116398 on: September 18, 2019, 02:23:26 am »

You are still using energy to heat the hot water, even if you do not use it.  In fact, if you DONT use it, you are being overtly wasteful. (Consuming energy for no practical purpose, other than legal requirements.)

The error you are making is in thinking I do not already cut utilities back to bare minimums.  I keep the lights off, and keep water use to a minimum already.  (My combined sewer, water, and trash bill is under 60$ a month.)

I would be willing to go "Full dark-age, no power used at all", which is what I was asserting.  I am not allowed to do that.  That is what I was asserting.  You are moving the goal post by asserting what you are.
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Arx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116399 on: September 18, 2019, 02:44:44 am »

Yes, I moved the goalposts. I very specifically and intentionally moved the goalposts because you complained that going full Dark Age was illegal, so I pointed out that there is an alternative goal available within the bounds of the law.

You are not cutting back utilities to a bare minimum, because almost all of your hobbies revolve around the use of electricity. You are fairly obviously not trying to go full Dark Age, because you're posting on this forum.

Not using the heated water isn't wasteful - it uses less energy to maintain the temperature than to keep heating new water. Recall that the objective here isn't your personal comfort, it's to get as close to "full dark-age, no power used at all" as possible within the bounds set by the law.

I stand by what I said: you don't want to actually do the drudgery required of living without electricity. You just think it sounds romantic. If you really wanted to live without electricity, you would dedicate this energy to figuring out how to do it or make progress towards it. Instead you're arguing with me on the internet about why it's fine that you're not actually trying to abandon modern excess.

It still comes down to that it looks very much like you want to die nobly, not live humbly.

Which actually raises another question! If you want so desperately to live a Dark Age life, why don't you leave the US? There are plenty of countries that won't stop you living like that.
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I am on Discord as Arx#2415.
Tu jee, veerey / Toofano se lad ke [Fight, brave one / Fight those internal storms and]
Tu jeet, veerey / Zakhmo se bhid kar bhi tu [Win, brave one / Weather those wounds and]
Firse uthega yaara [Rise once again]

Mel lives again! Fight monsters; fight crime; fight compound interest...
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