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[Vector]

Mine doesn't.

That's the thing.  I've come to understand that "well I've worked on it for five years, why isn't it good yet?" isn't the right thing to say (who works on something diligently for five years and is happy?), but you know, I'm so tired.  I'm tired of the unending despair, I'm tired of feeling with some certainty that the world would be better off if I didn't reproduce or marry (the pinnacle of female existence!), I'm tired of thinking every time I date--"am I going to do something reprehensible this time, too?  I don't want to be hated anymore/again."  I'm tired of learning, over and over again, to be scared when I open my mouth.  I'm tired of becoming accustomed to the notion that my friends don't really care for me.  I'm tired of being exiled.

I can't believe my friend abandoned me like that.  You see, I gave this bad piece of advice months ago, and I only recently stalked the younger sister's tumblr to find out that apparently I had made her profoundly miserable and she didn't bother to tell me to my face "hey, you're horrible, go die in a fire."  No one told me anything.

I want someone to come to me and come out with it.  Let them come hit me or tell me they want to watch me die.  Or stop treating me like this.  Just fucking pick one, world.  Destroy me fast or let me stay here.

Why in the hell do ex-boyfriends who know their ex-girlfriends have a pattern of depression (who accused her of being depressed when she wasn't, even) think it's reasonable to isolate them from their friends and persistently attack them for things they, logically speaking, could not have possibly done (I hope)?  If I'm evil, then come finish me off.  Pour my blood down the corridor and wear it as a badge of honor on your hands and mouth.  Get the job done.

. . .

Is this rational?  This doesn't look rational to me, but on the other hand it makes a lot of sense at the moment.  It's made a lot of sense in a lot of other moments, too.  I don't understand why my brain short-circuits like this.  It seems like it gets a certain amount of stress overload and then spirals out of control into full-on "well, if you want me gone, then maybe that's a good idea--and by the way, please make it very public and disgusting" mode.  I'm disgusted by my simultaneous eagerness to please and desire to make others suffer.  I don't understand that part of myself, but it seems pretty prevalent.  I suddenly snap and forget about my existence as anything other than a . . . I don't know what.  Well, here I am.  Back now.  Sorry about the visit from the crazy one who lives in the attic.  I have no idea how she got there or when her lease is up.

Pnx, you know, I assumed that it was a me-thing because people usually act like "how could another human being possibly behave this way," which makes me assume that I'm statistical anomaly.  But if people are generally faffy, clumsy assholes then it's a fault of compassion on their part, I guess.  Which reminds me that I need to make sure to quit acting like that whenever I am, because casually casting people out of humanity is a level of emotional violence we probably shouldn't engage in.

Whatever.  I'll stay on, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here.  I'll figure that out later.


Thank you, friends.  I don't feel better, but I will feel better in a while, and it will be because of what you have said.

Hey Vector, if you really want specific feedback on your issues, maybe something like Skype and some friends on Skype would be better? If all you want is to get it out, then you're doing the right thing in this here thread, you can be pretty sure we're reading it and you can also be sure that if anyone is going to get responded to it's you, because if anyone, you have the most friends here.

I want to get it out, because I've been persistently sitting on it and trying to be cheerful, and that's not working anymore.  Evidently.

If someone has advice for "how to get a backbone and level of self-esteem strong enough that when people try to emotionally take you out, you don't get an urge to take yourself out," I'll take it.  This seems to be my biggest problem right now, as I keep trying to sail my ship into safe harbor.  Most of my other persistent problems have been resolved, to the best of my knowledge.  That would be why I'm not in this state 24/7.

I really hope he's alright... shit.

Me, too.

[Lysabild]

Whatever.  I'll stay on, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here.  I'll figure that out later.

Do you need any other reason than the fact that friends are here? ^^

[Ogdibus]

.

[Solifuge]

-snip-

Don't really know what to say on the subject of building backbones and self-worth. My worth as a human being is a thing I doubted in myself for a long time. Until I didn't anymore... and I don't exactly know what changed. I suspect it was the realization that my self worth was just another one of those aspects of my internal environment; how I choose to feel about my circumstances, how I decide to act when people piss me off or tell me that I've hurt them, or whatever. And because it's something I control, I have a responsibility to myself to make sure it helps build me up into a better person, rather than letting it hurt me or break me down.

Again, I don't have a great grasp on this, but doubting my worth as a person was just an empty act of self-sabotage, and only served to hurt me. And though I still have the usual hurt response, when someone tells me I did something wrong, or implies that I am a bad person, after that I try to take a step back and analyze the situation. I consider what they said, how that relates to my intentions and actions, and speculate at what made them say what they said, so I can get as close to the truth as I can. Then, once I feel I've got a good and more objective picture of what I intended, what I actually did, and on the affect that I had, I decide what to feel and do about it.

If I still feel shitty about it, it's a good indication that I need to do something to change it for the future. If I find that they were just lashing out inappropriately due to other things, I may apologize to console them, and then let them calm down before we talk again in order to come to a better understanding. Always it involves a course of action, a new direction to take. A new attempt at progress, despite the setback. Never taking things away, or destroying what's been built, or enacting some self-imposed punishment, or whatever. Always trying to put one foot in front of the other.

Words are wind. What's important is not giving that wind more weight than it's worth. And maintaining the willpower and resolve to do what is right for you, and the situations you find yourself in, despite that wind. Or ideally, to channel that wind in a way that it helps carry you to where you want to be.

[Vector]

I'll say something a bit later.  I've cried myself into a state of exhaustion and probably need a nap or some quiet time playing games before I can get back to work on this problem.

[MaximumZero]

I'll say something a bit later.  I've cried myself into a state of exhaustion and probably need a nap or some quiet time playing games before I can get back to work on this problem.

*hugs* I really hope you feel better soon.

[Pnx]

Pnx, you know, I assumed that it was a me-thing because people usually act like "how could another human being possibly behave this way," which makes me assume that I'm statistical anomaly.  But if people are generally faffy, clumsy assholes then it's a fault of compassion on their part, I guess.  Which reminds me that I need to make sure to quit acting like that whenever I am, because casually casting people out of humanity is a level of emotional violence we probably shouldn't engage in.

Whatever.  I'll stay on, but I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing here.  I'll figure that out later.

It's one of those things that I've noticed crops up a lot... It really really is a common issue. However because a lot of people hide it or are afraid to talk about it, people aren't very aware it's a common issue. Your problem here more than anything else is that you're more honest and self aware about this sort of stuff than most people are. It's a very common human response to live in denial, or at least pretend to live in denial of your problems, so when you don't do that, it makes you seem like you have more or bigger problems that other people.

The other two things I'd like to pick on was you calling yourself "domineering", which is something I had a friend call herself a lot in the context of "I'm such a horrible domineering person", and I had big issues with feeling I was a very manipulative person for a long while. The thing you have to realize is that exerting control over other people is actually a normal part of social interactions.
I mean, I'm doing it right now, this text is supposed to elicit a certain kind of reaction, one that I'm aiming for (specifically to enhance your knowledge base and hopefully help you with an issue or two). Does that mean I'm being manipulative, does it make me domineering?

Technically yes, but if you say "yes" to that question then you're going to have to accept that the entire human species is a bunch of horrible manipulative domineering bastards, or change your definition of those words. If I were in a more pessimistic mood I'd say those were equally valid options.

The other of the two things was the whole "I'm not fit to reproduce" thing which is also something I dealt with. There's two angles to it.

Firstly there's the whole genetics thing, I felt for a long while my genetics meant I should not ever reproduce because frankly half my family is psychological ill, and the other half has horrible issues with heart disease and such. However that's also true of a heck of a lot of people. The human species is full of this sort of stuff, you're probably not aware of it because again, most people hide it or are in ignorance of it. Maybe once we get genetic engineering cracked we'll talk about the possible responsibility of making sure your offspring has good genetics, and the whole load of moral issues that brings. But until then, you're just going to have live with it.

The other angle is "I'm not mentally fit to raise a child". Which is something I used to think. There is the argument similar to the other ones that you're honestly probably not any worse than most of the rest of the parents out there, but there's a much bigger argument that in all honesty it only takes four things to raise a child well. Empathy, an ability to think critically, the time/money to dedicate, and dedication.
Everything else you need can be picked up as long as you have these things. And you seem to have the empathy and critical thinking in pretty big supply, so I honestly think you'd make a great mother if you had a desire to set your mind to it.

That said, while I know that from a sort of evolutionary standpoint reproducing is supposed to be high on our list of life goals, I'm personally of the opinion that seriously fuck that shit.

[Frumple]

If someone has advice for "how to get a backbone and level of self-esteem strong enough that when people try to emotionally take you out, you don't get an urge to take yourself out," I'll take it.

Really wish I had advice to give on this one. Something seems to have killed my self-esteem around my early/mid-teens, more or less entirely. One is what one is. That's not so much a thing to be valued as a thing to be acknowledged, I guess. I don't really value myself in any meaningful sense. Don't see worth in what I am or what I've done. That is what it is. But... I can do interesting things, and produce interesting works, and help in little ways, and help in big ways, and even if I am not of value the potential I hold is. Even if I don't manage those things, I can at least try toward them to some degree and, for me, that's become enough. And above and beyond that, it's just neat to do things. Breathing is awesome. Watching the walls are great. I was mostly bedridden for a good six months straight. Since then, even walking or shifting in bed is like a tiny little existentially fulfilling dance. The sensation of sensation still brings me to tears sometimes. It hasn't really led to me being more active or anything. Everything's just so much more fulfilling, it seems.

I just wish I had an answer as to how I got there. Don't really know what to do or say besides share the experience. Lot of it's too internalized or subconscious to really unpack, and "not thinking about it" is about half of what keeps that working, heh. Somewhere in between the consistent history of paranoia and near-isolation and a few outright psychotic breaks, and the decade and a bit of meditation, metaphysics, ethics, and aesthetics, it seems to have just... came together. The right things broke, and what was formed from the remains is... pretty content. Still very much not in a good spot by any outside measure you'd care to measure by, but I'm doing better than I have in a long time. Sorta'.

It's kinda' lonely, yeah, but fixing that just seems to be finding the right people. S'just... quite hard to do that. Takes a lot of time. Not a very high success rate. And people change, including oneself, so they might not last too long. You take it as it comes, and there'll probably be lulls. I kinda' see interpersonal relations as a sort of jigsaw puzzle, yeah? Some folks just fit. Others fit to varying degrees. Some don't fit at all. It's not so much figuring out how to change your puzzle piece as finding the other pieces that fit. The pieces will take care of themselves.

The latter bit, though... I'unno. I doubt it'd work for many. For me, I just... established the conditions under which I'd take the proverbial hike and decided to stick with them. It sounds kinda' silly but I rather do intend to off myself in another four or five decades. I don't really want to live to seventy. Barring major medical malfunction before then or a couple of social issues (generally related to imprisonment), though, I do want to stick around for a while. I'm not bored yet, and I'm not so disabled I can't still do some good here and there, and either of those is sufficient condition to keep on ticking, for a while. It doesn't have to be much. Got low expectations. Really, really low, when it comes to boredom and helping out. Still get the occasional urge or intrusive thought, but, ah. Y'get urges to do a lot of things, yeah? They're just motivations of varying sorts. One acts on them when it benefits, and don't when it doesn't. Not always the easiest of things to do, but it comes with practice.

S'just... I'unno. Y'try to keep the harm to unintentional, yeah? And worry when you don't. You seem to, Vec. That's... better than a lot of people. A lot. Virtue of its own sort, and a strong sort. Stick with that, I guess? Situation's stressful and lingering. Gods know I can empathize with that. But it'll pass, in time. Things will improve or mellow out or you'll figure out how to cope better. It'll be a bitch in the interim but it'll pass. Do what you can about what you can, try not to worry about the rest. You will fail at that, but if you're trying, even the littlest most minuscule bit, you're doing better than most people. Me, I think that's enough, yeah? Sufficient condition. S'what I've been telling myself for most of the last couple decades, anyway.

Maybe there's something in that ramble that'll help out, some.

---

And Solifuge, feels. In a sorta' similar situation with grandparents. Always finding out things second hand, knowing they're not taking care of themselves or letting folks in. Not really sure what to do besides what I'm doing. Offer's there, do what I can if asked, but a lot of what I was taught and heavily reinforced revolves around not doing anything without invitation (partially influenced by th'fact that they're who's primarily feeding and housing me at the moment, and it just seems... wrong... to contravene those who offer without want of recompense. Different with the parent, because there was usually a definite price there, but... they're different.). And they don't invite very often, so to speak. S'not really my place to intervene, it feels. And it hurts a fair bit, because, shit. Want to help, y'know? At least do something. But there's no in, and this sort of thing is a two way road.

[Euld]

Playing Cave Story... woah apparently this game has some serious choices that can make lots of things go wrong.

[Truean]

People fear what they don't understand Vector and you are beyond them.

Human socialization is built upon irrational "feelings" of people, most of which are caught up in trying to satisfy their own fucked up feelings and under the illusion that they can satisfy their own feelings by hurting those of other people. It is all most people can do to control the messed up emotions inside them and quite frankly the overwhelming majority fail, stupendously, at this task. Unable to deal with their own shit, those people certainly have no ability to help anybody else, including you and I.

That said, there actually are some people who have figured out cooperation is the means to best help humanity deal with its common problems. Organization and cooperation work on all levels, atomic, molecular, biological, and social. Your liver isn't competing against your heart to keep you alive.... Unfortunately, human beings often fight with one another, via combat, competition, or backstabbing, and there are a whole shitload of people like this.

You've gotta figure out how to navigate that: genuinely or otherwise. The good news is, it can be done. The bad news is, it can be rather difficult, requires defensive and offensive tactics, and dealing with an immense amount of assholes.

I've found exactly 5 people on earth who meet this criteria. First there's the ex boyfriend, who is now married in Canada to somebody else. Second, was a thief, drunkard, and drug addict whom I forcibly pulled away from an abusive manager, into sobriety, a rock band, and a life. Third, there was the girl whose parents were furious I talked her out of going to college to start a business that is still successfully growing. (They thought I wanted to ruin her, take advantage of her and sleep with her. I make a point to tell them off, regularly.) Fourth, there's the one friend who knows how I really am and supported that before anybody else while realizing the need to keep it a secret.  Finally, there was a talented musician who collapsed under the overwhelming tonnage of how great of a man he was and committed suicide. I failed; I lost his fight. To these four people and one ghost, I am myself. The rest of the world sees a lie, which is more than I believe it deserves.

Self esteem consists of knowing you are worth it, not because the world says so, but in spite of the world saying you aren't. The world doesn't say anybody is worth it, because most of the world isn't worth it. I know worthless; you aren't.

If someone has advice for "how to get a backbone and level of self-esteem strong enough that when people try to emotionally take you out, you don't get an urge to take yourself out," I'll take it.

I regularly deal with the worst of humanity and those deserving exile from it. You are not in this group. You can get through it, though you do not presently know how. It is a skill, one which does not have a time frame to develop but is a continuing matter.

That feeling of dread, that hopeless feeling? My advice: don't let it turn inward. Use it.... Use. It. People that don't matter, really don't matter to you, have a hell of a time hurting you without getting hurt themselves. It isn't that humanity doesn't matter to me. I hate most of it, which is a form of love. (Hate isn't the opposite of love, indifference is).

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

(FYI: Max walks away from that).

[Devling]

Playing Cave Story... woah apparently this game has some serious choices that can make lots of things go wrong.

Kinda...
It's either "Suck end" (You fly away on a dragon), "Normal End" (Curly dies and just drops out of the story rather anticlamtically), "Perfect End" (everone lives).
And getting the Perfect End is pretty circuitous.

[Sirus]

Playing Cave Story... woah apparently this game has some serious choices that can make lots of things go wrong.

Kinda...
It's either "Suck end" (You fly away on a dragon), "Normal End" (Curly dies and just drops out of the story rather anticlamtically), "Perfect End" (everone lives).
And getting the Perfect End is pretty circuitous.

Not to mention difficult. I still haven't beaten the True Final Boss.

[Mr Space Cat]

I'll say something a bit later.  I've cried myself into a state of exhaustion and probably need a nap or some quiet time playing games before I can get back to work on this problem.

Vector, I've found that doing that whole "isolate yourself because you deserve it" just makes you feel worse. I've done it, I still do it, it sucks, it's the worst thing to do. In my case it only makes me feel like there's even more stuff wrong with me, because otherwise I'd be hanging out with other people because that's what all the normal people do and blah-blah-blah it's a negative feedback loop or something.

Some simple human interaction does wonders when I'm down. Maybe I simply haven't gotten as "down" as you are at the moment, but even if it feels awkward as hell or you feel as if you shouldn't be around other people or whatever, simply chatting with a friend, companion, acquaintance, or pet rock can help...somehow.

Forced self-isolation does nothing more than drag you down further.

[SalmonGod]

I see self-worth as a decision.  You'll never ever have it by comparing yourself to other people and the value they bring to society.  I know it's hard not to do.  But the best way to have self-worth is to realize that this is your life.  You didn't ask for it, but now you're in it.  So the self-worth you should aim for is the realization that you are worth the effort to yourself.  Not by virtue of some objective measure of goodness or value, but because nobody else is going to live your life for you.  This is it.  Your existence is not a matter of what effects you have on the world.  It's a matter of you simply being you, whatever you decide for yourself that that means.  It's a matter of how meaningful and fulfilling your reflections will be in your final moments.  Our tiny, subjective experiences are the only things that make this rich, vast universe any different from a void of nothing, and no one knows those experiences but ourselves.  So make them your own.  There is no intrinsic basis by which you can reason that you owe anything to anyone but yourself.  The only thing other people can expect of you is not to get in the way of their own efforts to do the best they can for themselves.  We do things for each other because mutual efforts bring mutual benefits.  It's wonderful when people put in extra effort beyond that, but it's definitely time to stop when those efforts subvert your ability to feel that your own life is worth putting effort into.

And as I was typing this, it became less directed at Vector and more of a post on depression in general.  There is no point to anything.  It's true.  But that's exactly why the experience of life is its own point, and one that nobody can take from you once it's been internalized.

Anybody who hasn't seen this movie and has motivation problems, watch it as soon as you can.  Seriously.  Maybe others won't be moved by it the same way I was, but it's the most inspirational thing I've ever seen and I haven't doubted life since.  I'm actually rather excited, because I did a quick search to see what clips of it were available to share.  Turns out the whole thing is there.  I think I'm going to take the time to watch it myself now.  It's been a few years.

[Putnam]

I find dealing with people who have low self-esteem extremely difficult, because... I've never had that. It's easy for me to say that self-worth is a choice because I've always felt that I've chosen to have a high sense of self-worth.

This year, I was kind of an authority figure in the marching band. Not that much. Kind of... alternative half-section leader. I was the other senior in there. We had two freshman. One of them had--and still has, as far as I see--an incredibly low self-esteem. I mean, incredible. We had to convince her that we weren't angry at her when she did something wrong in band camp, which would essentially be like being angry at someone for not being able to play Bach while teaching them the piano. I realized partway through--low self-esteem is tough. I can't say that she should just stop--then it's her fault, and that would make her feel worse. It's a horrible negative feedback loop.