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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 8581072 times)

Reverie

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61275 on: May 02, 2013, 12:10:10 am »

Descan isn't here. No chance.

Damn it, I was wiggling my tush three times while saying "Hai gurl!" Am I doing something wrong?
I actually laughed aloud when I read this. XD

EDIT: I need a friend like Descan in real life. Seriously.
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Catsup

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61276 on: May 02, 2013, 12:10:39 am »

The thing about System 1 and System 2 is this.

People run on two different modes of thinking, which we've classically divided into "emotion" and "reason," or rather "insight" and "logic."  But the truth is that there are problems which are solved best by insight and instinct (reading facial expressions, responding to danger, counting up to 7, most physical activities, many math problems) and some others that are best solved by slow, careful thought (many business decisions, essay-writing, long-term strategy).

Saying that emotion is weak deprives you of an entire mode of thought that evolved precisely to make it so that you can deal with certain situations.  Emotion has to be polished, yes.  But it isn't weak.  It is incredibly strong.
system 1 is very poorly equipped for dealing with suicide though, because if your own reasoning is potentially unsound then any immediate actions would be detrimental. Im associating system 1 with emotions.


I think that's really too bad for you, because I'm not interested in sharing my experience for your dissection.  If emotion is weak, then I have no expectation that you'll treat me with compassion.
I don't know what your point is.  You don't know me, either, and I intend to keep it that way.  So?
i cannot make my point if i dont get a chance to even try to empathize with you. But do not say that i have no compassion, i know for a fact that that is not true.

Be more objective.  Or rather, be someone else's subjective for a minute.  Let's say you have chronic headaches.  Your head never stops hurting.  The pain is splitting.  You can't work.  You often can't get out of bed, and your life is spent moaning and retching and being a burden on your family, which is increasingly unable to pay for your medical bills.
i know what youre getting at... but this kind of trauma, unless its from a very young age, is very very unlikely for adults, even for very traumatize situations like if your loved one died.

emotional trauma can normally be resolved if you can get to the root of it, a physical ailment usually cannot be.


You're a selfish brick wall, inconsiderate of others' feelings concerning the matter.
you dont know me.

Imagine if you were born without arms, and everyone made fun of you? You'd be suffering chronic mental pain and self-esteem issues, the concept of which seems to escape you.
no one would discriminate against this individual after childhood. Yes their development would be "delayed" a bit, but they would eventually come to realize "hey, im still human, i was born naturally without arms so im not normal. But i can think and feel just like any other human so i am not inferior as a human being". They would eventually find paece with themselves and the world.

Thing is, what you're preaching only applies to you. Life is sad, but you're being inconsiderate of what others have suffered. And I think some have suffered more than you have.
is it really impossible to look at human suffering objectively? its really not the "amount" any person has suffered, but since we are all subjective and since our outlook is malleable i think the amount of suffering varies from person to person despite the same stimulus/event, and this can be changed for the better so we all suffer less.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2013, 12:12:43 am by Catsup »
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Ogdibus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61277 on: May 02, 2013, 12:14:38 am »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:19:49 pm by Ogdibus »
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Xantalos

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61278 on: May 02, 2013, 12:21:00 am »

I'm amazed this particular topic has been going on for about four pages now. Don't have the heart to read the whole thing through, but...
Welcome to bay12, where the derails actually pave their own tracks, much in the fashion of Wallace and Gromit. Right now we are riding the unstoppable, small model train of moral debate down the freshly laid tracks to where ever the fuck we want. Choo choo! Watch for penguins!
What I mean is, when last I left it it seemed to be on the verge of a flamewar. Like I said, I didn't read the whole way through, but I figured someone would have stepped in to say "no, that's enough of that" by now.
I tried.
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Catsup

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61279 on: May 02, 2013, 12:26:29 am »

I tried.
i tried as well, i mean cmon 1 second we were having a calm civilized discussion, and then the next i have 5-9 responses in front of me before i can even make a reply and everyones like "no thats wrong". I think half the ppl misunderstood me as well...geez.

SalmonGod

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61280 on: May 02, 2013, 12:38:00 am »

Some thoughts on Catsup (yes I'm going to talk about him/her as if they're not here for a moment).  People don't always talk this way because they're ignorant or anything like that.  Sometimes it's because they've had to cope with the suicide of someone they cared about, and this is how they do it.  I've seen several people in the past who have completely resentful, stubborn, and incompassionate attitudes towards the subject because that was simply their emotional response to dealing with a suicide event in their own lives.  I've also seen people talk this way because they're secretly fighting off suicidal thoughts themselves, and what they're doing is essentially vocalizing their own inner efforts to build up walls against those thoughts.

Or Catsup could just be completely unfamiliar with the subject.  If so, reality will probably catch up with that eventually.  Almost everyone struggles with suicidal thoughts at some point in their life, and IIRC, more than half of people make an attempt.  Catsup is incredibly lucky if the issue has never made an appearance in their personal life before.

A friend of mine hung herself in a closet this past August.  She was 30 years old and had lived with cerebral palsy her entire life.  I didn't even know this until her funeral.  She was incredibly brave.  Every day was horrible pain for her, but she never showed it.  She led an active life up until the last couple years.  Did volunteer work for disabled children and was a great artist.  She had a one year old child.  I think she wanted to set her husband and child free instead of letting her medical problems (and the massive piling medical bills) be a burden on them, when she was at a point where she was hardly able to do anything but lay in bed anymore.  Her husband, one of my best friends, has said that he's since felt like she watches and sends him encouragement to move on to a better life.  Whenever I listen to Blue from the Cowboy Bebop soundtrack, I think of her.

Life is complicated.  Judging is bad.

In other news, this is now the Descan appreciation thread. :)

Expecting so many ninjas.
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In the land of twilight, under the moon
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Maybe people should love for the sake of loving, and not with all of these optimization conditions.

Pnx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61281 on: May 02, 2013, 12:40:19 am »

The entire point of the system 1/2 thing is that "emotional" instinctive thought is an intricate and inescapable part of how the human brain works.

It's like if I pose the question, "Someone has just bashed their way through your wall kool-aid style and shot in the leg with a gun, it hurts like hell, what do you do?"

I know at least one person I'm pretty sure would respond with something along the lines of "uppercut him", but that's because he's a very irrational and childish person. The real answer is "freak the fuck out", because you're not a navy seal with a lot of experience getting shot by people. When the pressure is on, your brain is not going to want to think things through clearly, all it cares about is that it feels it's in danger and it wants to do something right now.

Same applies to psychological/emotional trauma, it's very inhibitive to rational, careful, thinking. And if you're thinking that people will be able to calm down and then take the time to think things through carefully, well you might be right, but I know that it can literally take days for the effects of traumatic events to settle down, and sometimes you're just not given that kind of time between events.

Plus really, when has "You should just calm down and think about this rationally" ever made anyone calm down and think about something rationally?
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MaximumZero

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61282 on: May 02, 2013, 12:42:05 am »

I know at least one person I'm pretty sure would respond with something along the lines of "uppercut him", but that's because he's a very irrational and childish person.
Irrational, sure, but childish? Eeeeh, I could see that. Carry on.
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Holy crap, why did I not start watching One Punch Man earlier? This is the best thing.
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Xantalos

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61283 on: May 02, 2013, 12:42:22 am »

Plus really, when has "You should just calm down and think about this rationally" ever made anyone calm down and think about something rationally?
I probably count as an exception, buuut...
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Pnx

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61284 on: May 02, 2013, 12:46:00 am »

I know at least one person I'm pretty sure would respond with something along the lines of "uppercut him", but that's because he's a very irrational and childish person.
Irrational, sure, but childish? Eeeeh, I could see that. Carry on.
He's the kind of person that tends to paint himself to be a badass... You know, because he could totally take whoever this person with a gun is... This is not a person I recommend emulating.

Plus really, when has "You should just calm down and think about this rationally" ever made anyone calm down and think about something rationally?
I probably count as an exception, buuut...
Ok, actually thinking about it I do know one person this sort of worked for once, but only because this was really not the first time, and it had sort of become a conditioned response.
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61285 on: May 02, 2013, 12:51:15 am »

What is emotional is also physical.  Not only that, I didn't say that you have no compassion--just that logically speaking, if you abhor emotion, then you should also abhor compassion.  So, you know, there is also the scenario where you are weak, which is fine by me.

This is the problem: I don't want to share my story so that you can make your point.  I want to share my story in service to myself, not so that you can tell me I don't know what I'm talking about or whatever.


But here you are.  You asked for it; here's my story.

My cousin died when I was seven years old.  Before that, I was a very happy person.  Then I withdrew, because I didn't know what to do with the situation.  Stopped talking, stopped making facial expressions, whatever.  This withdrawal was not very good for making friends, and the rest of my family was traumatized and began to treat me as a scapegoat.  They told me I was dirty and stupid, and not fit to be with the rest of them.  I was allowed to sit and read my book on the floor, but I wasn't to be spoken to--I was to disappear and become an object.

My parents didn't treat me that way, but my mother was in crisis and my father had to take care of her.  There was also a question as to whether I would die of the same illness, and the few friends I made were often quick to tell me that they wish I'd told them I might be ill, so they could have chosen to never befriend me.  I was largely estranged from any sort of support system and suffered from chronic depression, to the point where I don't remember what it is to be happy and carefree.  Ever since then, I've been told that my eyes look old.

But that didn't do it.

Fast forward to when I was eighteen years old, started going out with my first boyfriend, and went to college.  I found out the following about myself in the space of a few months:

I am attracted to all genders, but not sexually so
I do not identify with any particular gender
I am not, in fact, an atheist (my family is Catholic, my major and the boyfriend of the time militantly atheist/agnostic)
most people are not in fact chronically depressed;
My assumptions about the human race's general amity towards me was wrong--they tolerated me, but they weren't acting in a friendly way.
I had (have) Asperger's syndrome, probably exacerbated by massive isolation between ages 7 and 18
when I went to college, people were not going to stop bullying me
One of the main reasons why my boyfriend went out with me was because he thought I was broken, that he would fix me, and then I would be beholden to him (I never thought of myself as broken before that)

That boyfriend was abusive, and tried to isolate me from my parents and my last remaining friend.  It worked--helped that my informing my best and only friend of these things led her to call me an "abomination," and that I could never tell any of it to my very religious family, or most of it to my very irreligious boyfriend.

The way this all started was by thinking that random people were trying to kill me because, after all, a blight on society whom no one likes isn't something you'd particularly try to keep alive--so randomly running them over with your car wouldn't be too big of a deal.  Then the delusions, that past mathematics was created by the masters just for me.  Then the self-isolation and the obsession--if they didn't want me, then I would serve them from the shadows and remove myself from humanity.  Then the clawing loneliness, heart-rending, impossible to escape because I had almost literally no social skills.  Then the realization that I was standing in a contradiction and could not both do my duty to mathematics (the only thing that gave me any societal value) and gain social skills (an almost impossible endeavor, and something necessary so that I would be able to do math later).

Then the mood swings.  Sadness, rage, anxiety, blinding happiness, cycling from one to the other in a blink of an eye, utterly unpredictable.  Hours spent sobbing under my desk and asking God to take me out, or hours screaming into my pillow for sheer fury.  Panic attacks.  Psychotic episodes.  Hours spent babbling, rhyming, alliterating, speaking pure poetry, counting off numbers, reciting things I had read, moments which no one else could understand but to me where a height of terror and bliss.  Sleeping between two and five hours a night for months.  Self-starvation--less than four hundred calories a day, because I was obsessed with accruing societal value and I thought that maybe, if I were thin enough, someone would politely tell me I was beautiful for once.  I felt like I was being shaken apart.  When I stopped walking, my vision would blur and blacken and I would lose balance.

He wanted broken, I thought?  I'd give him broken.  It wasn't just an outside force.  It was a vengeance committed, a pain that I was going to extract from both his flesh and mine.  I was infuriated.  My only value to other people was the degree to which I had suffered an unusual degree of pain.  As a human being--as something other than a crucible of sorrow--they had made it clear that I had no worth.

I remember, once, one of the happiest moments of my life: walking down the street, laughing so hard I was almost falling down, thinking about cutting off body parts and mailing them to people.  The pleasure of self-destruction cut on the icy edge of their disapproval and lack of care.  The more I knew it didn't matter, the more joy came from the idea of public, gory self-mutilation.  Something people would never remember forever, because I mattered to no one--a sort of signature event.  Paradoxical.

I went to a psychologist, of course.  They spent hours of my life telling me how blisteringly, unusually bright I was.  They didn't give me any of the help I needed, because autism is a child's disease, and no one much seems to care about those who remain.

Why am I alive?  Because of my love of mathematics.  That is why I am alive.  I wanted to badly to die, but I wanted to do math even more--and there was no fear of failure, because I recognized that if I wasn't trying, or if I was dead, that was isomorphic to trying and failing.  I dropped out of school.  I spent a summer taking long, slow walks, thinking about nothing, feeling nothing, caring about nothing.

But the sad thing is, I will never again experience anything in my life as intense.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

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Ogdibus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61286 on: May 02, 2013, 12:53:54 am »

.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 04:20:36 pm by Ogdibus »
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Vector

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61287 on: May 02, 2013, 12:57:05 am »

Yeah.

I'm not spoilering that, but let it be known that I'm aware it's a monster-post.  I don't think I've said so much about what I was experiencing after I stopped living it, though, so I figured I'd write it out or something.

Bleh.
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"The question of the usefulness of poetry arises only in periods of its decline, while in periods of its flowering, no one doubts its total uselessness." - Boris Pasternak

nonbinary/genderfluid/genderqueer renegade mathematician and mafia subforum limpet. please avoid quoting me.

pronouns: prefer neutral ones, others are fine. height: 5'3".

Catsup

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61288 on: May 02, 2013, 12:57:36 am »

vector im sorry, can we talk about this in a PM? i dont abhor compassion at all its just that emotions are not fair and often cause unnecessary pain, im saying we should realize this so we are hurt less by circumstances beyond our control. Please delete your post and send it in a PM, i didnt read it yet i just read the first few sentences.

Lysabild

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #61289 on: May 02, 2013, 12:59:23 am »

First, I want to hug Salmon, then I really need to pee and in the meantime Vector posted and I'll read that once I'm back. But you can have a hug ahead of time.

*Hugs*
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