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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 4851537 times)

McTraveller

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116175 on: August 29, 2019, 02:39:39 pm »

I plugged my old SNES hardware into our TV and just got a black screen and no audio.  Power light was on, so the outputs were working, but had no signal to provide :'(
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116176 on: August 29, 2019, 02:55:36 pm »

One problem I had was that my composite to scart adapter was broken, test only composite signal that should give you an indication if that were the case.


Yo the super-fx is supported, I've played pilotwings :)




It would appear that my only choice is to upscale the heckin signal, introducing lag so I could send that to my card that could theoretically further upscale without too much lag. Not that I ever needed any of that because the screen just takes plain AV. Man this great -.-, I wonder if it's just about the firmware or if it's this damn 8:7 that makes me distrust all upscalers I'm currently scrolling trough. I just don't get it, what did the old TVs do with such a signal to allways comes out "fullscreen". Why can't I just have black bars like with the PS2 (yeah apparantly even that isn't entirely perfect broadcast standard though the black bars are equidistant).

McTraveller

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116177 on: August 29, 2019, 03:02:27 pm »

One problem I had was that my composite to scart adapter was broken, test only composite signal that should give you an indication if that were the case.

No SCART adapter here. I can't remember if I tried using the TV out, or just the composite out... I may have to try again.
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Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116178 on: August 29, 2019, 03:29:12 pm »

So I got this fancy USB 3.0 video card, it's kind of the more professional tier that bridges the gap between analogue and digital, like I could output my monitor on an oldschool tv if I wanted to, or upscale analog signal up to 1080p30, swap between interlaced and not... a bunch of stuff I don't need; I just took it because it has native support for the specific software I'm using, so instead of "going trough the system drivers" the software and hardware communicate directly.

It works as advertised, been playing PS2 for a day now, then I wanted to try the SNES... Then I found out the SNES has a 256224 resolution which my videocard manufacturer doesn't consider "broadcasting standard". Yes because the SNES and Megadrive were just too obscure of a gimmicky plastic urban myth for the resolution to be considered somewhat mainstream - standard you might say.


GUUUUUH fuck my soul  >:(


The SNES (and other old consoles as well) resolution being non-standard is a genuine, well-known problem. It is one of the biggest reasons why input lag is so bad on modern TVs (unless you get some sort of upscaler or mod your console for HDMI, your chances of any kind of action game being playable on anything but a CRT is quite low), because it is quite difficult to scale up.

When these things were coming out, the modern notion of pixel-exact resolutions didn't really exist, because (unlike a LCD) a CRT has an enormous ability to compensate with no delay as a consequence of the analog signal. There was a set broadcast resolution set by whatever governing board was relevant (NTSC for the US and Japan, PAL in most of Europe, and SECAM in France), and VCRs stuck to that standard, but computers and game consoles were not required to do so and generally didn't. Every 8-bit computer and /16-bit console outputs a slightly different resolution than every other one, even if they're nominally the same number of pixels. It is a huge problem in the retrogaming community, and the reason why we hoard CRTs (I have 8 floating around) as if they were dragon's treasure.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116179 on: August 29, 2019, 03:53:45 pm »

Huh I knew there was some merit to the old screens but Idk the image I'm getting on this never bothered me one bit.

I wonder if this will output something the card shall accept as standard definition (look at that mess this is a joke, what about that is standard, I allways thought pal and ntsc was all there was to it)

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116180 on: August 29, 2019, 04:16:35 pm »

Huh I knew there was some merit to the old screens but Idk the image I'm getting on this never bothered me one bit.


It isn't the image quality that's the problem, save for purists (LCDs have extremely sharp pixels, while CRTs have more diffuse ones - this means that games designed for CRTs had a blending effect that is lost on an LCD, and is the reason why emulators have so many filter options). The problem is that converting an analog 240p signal to a digital 480p/1080p/2460p/ect one takes processing power, and most TVs don't have a lot of that built in - and they have to upscale because an LCD display only really has one resolution. For recorded video, this is no big deal - you'll never notice the difference unless you have the signal split between two TVs and are watching them side-by-side.

For gaming, however, there's a significant effect. If the picture on the display is what came out of the console .2 -.8 seconds ago, you'll find any game that requires precision timing (be it a rhythm game, a platformer requiring pixel-perfect jumps, or the traditional meter-based golf game, for example) will become much more difficult because your input will come in noticeably late.

Some LCD TVs, particularly SD ones, have good enough upscaling hardware that they can keep this too low to notice. It isn't common, even on expensive sets, because the designers didn't anticipate anybody wanting to do it in the first place.


Fortunately, there are options - standalone upscaling boxes are available on the market, and a good one (the Retrotink 2X is a bottom-barrel solution - you'd be better off with an OSSC because it works better and isn't quite as restricted in input types) will output a perfectly formatted digital signal with no noticable delay. Modification kits are available for most systems that allow them to output in those higher resolutions to begin with, eliminating the problem. Perhaps best of all, there are new FPGA-based systems (NOT the Retron-type emulator boxes - those are absolute garbage that should be avoided at all costs) that behave exactly like an SNES/NES/Genesis but output in HD. This comes at a cost - an upscaler will run in the range of $200-400, mods cost $100-$200 per system, and the FPGA boxes are $200-$500.


EDIT: You need an adapter to use composite or S-video with an OSSC, which means an additional cost. It only supports SCART and Composite in out-of-the-box. The only one I've worked with was modified, and I did not realize this until double-checking.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2019, 04:20:07 pm by Lord Shonus »
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116181 on: August 29, 2019, 05:44:00 pm »

I get that with the input lag, I'm just saying that using the normal scart port of that cheap tv I was never dissappointed, and I'm quite the sprinter at mario.


Yes I'm eyeing the OSSC too, these seem to be the only devices that fit me, framemaster is something else. I'm fine with lag of the normal setup (console to tv), I'm also fine with the lag in video trough (I've played gran turismo the whole day, honestly I don't think I can tell snes on CRT a part from SNES on my TV, nor can I tell video trough a part from normal PS2, everything is just snappy) and the card captures higher color fidelity than what reaches the TV so that's cool too. The only problem is that the card won't grab the SNES because of it's low resolution. So my main concern is with the output, "true PAL" would be perfect but apparantly there is no such thing... Now that I went further down the rabbit hole I only have more questions. Given the fact that the old stuff oftentimes has formats that differ from 4:3, do the scalers stretch the signal or will it have black bars? Another thing I wonder: 480p can travel trough composite right since it's SVCD PAL/NTSC? (it's a detail but I'd much rather have both consoles running trough the same TV channel, and the videocard would allow me to do so)

Also what is S-Video? Because I was under the impression that scart, composite and S-Video are functionnaly identical and could be converted via simple cable adapters but then I see some upscaled footage and S-Video seems to have a lot more detail... Then I read about handmade s-video cables  :o. Could you ELI5 that to me as well as you did for the lag? Mainly: does s-video need to be plugged in in addition to composite? And some other thing I never quite understood: is the composite videosignal "somewhere inside" component, or does none of the cables "carry what was formerly known as the yellow one"?

Ugh I really don't want to spend more money on what was supposed to be a green screen substitute and legal background music, but the SNES catalogue is so much more insteresting than my less than a dozen PS2 games. It is especially silly overkill since streaming is just an option I want to reserve my self, because the goal was just to able to grab video from all possible sources, manipulate it, and send it to any possible combination of screens, speakers and such (as easily as I'm allready able to do with sound). Would I really need a specific footage, I could easily create it with an emulator as Naturegirl pointed out. I guess I'm just too far in at this point to shy away from an upscaler  ::)

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116182 on: August 29, 2019, 06:41:14 pm »

Here's a rough synopsis.

The most basic possible output from a console (or other device) is RF-out using the TV's antenna connection. The earliest TVs and consoles required you to take forked connectors and attatch them to screws on the TV, but this was replaced by the now ubiquitous coaxial cable and connector in the US, and (as I understand it) the Belling-Lee connector in Europe. This is the absolute worst option - not only is the signal fairly poor to begin with, but getting a solid connection is very difficult and you tend to get a lot of noise interfering with it.

One step up from that is COMPOSITE video - the yellow plug. This is superior in every way to RF, due to having a cleaner signal to begin with and because the connector is much better. You still get a lot of artifacting and color bleed, so it isn't perfect. This is the "default" connection in the modern era.

The next step is COMPONENT video. This is usually very similar to a COMPOSITE connection, except that where a COMPOSITE cable has three plugs (video, left audio, right audio), the COMPONENT cable has five (three video, two audio). This splits the signal into three parts (exactly what those parts are is a very complex subject) to prevent too much bandwidth going through one cable. This results in a superb picture, but the downside is that not all that many consoles actually have support for it - it was a fairly late arrival, and the advent of digital standards such as HDMI obsoleted it fairly quickly. This is supported by PS2/3, Xbox/360, Wii, and sometimes Gamecube.

S-video is a simpler form of component video, with three data wires sharing a common ground (instead of the three data wires and three grounds in the case of component). The picture isn't quite as nice as three-wire component due to the common ground, but it was supported out of the box on a ton of systems (SNES, PS1, PS2, N64), needing only the correct cable. There are times when you do not want to use it, particularly with PS1 - you can result in a picture that is much too sharp, and several games look really bad this way.

The final connection type is RGB, which transmits the data over many wires to get the maximum bandwidth. Very few consoles support it without modding - IIRC most SEGA stuff does (via SCART cable on the Genesis, VGA on the Dreamcast, and I'm not sure about the Saturn), but not much else.


Where SCART fits in is tricky. SCART is just a connector, and can carry any of these signal types. There's been plenty of disappointed retrogamers that shelled out hard cash for a "RGB cable kit" only to find that it was just composite running over SCART.



As an aside (because I feel obliged to spread this information), original Xboxes suicide due to a cheap capacitor that will rupture and spray the motherboard with acid. If you have an OG xbox, you need to open it up and cut the clock capacitor. Tutorials are available.




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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116183 on: August 29, 2019, 06:56:06 pm »

Thank you very much! (i noticed not all scarts have the same amounts of pins so that explains that)

And lol some reviewer is cray cray for that groundwire xD  guess he never had issues with a USB powered DAC. I think I'll be fine with my composite cables those rgb truly have ridiculous prices and don't facilitate my wiring at all.

scourge728

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116184 on: August 29, 2019, 07:20:28 pm »

How does the gamecube only sometimes support component

Lord Shonus

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116185 on: August 29, 2019, 08:20:42 pm »

For reasons only known to Nintendo, the Gamecube does not support component out of the normal A/V port the way other systems do. Instead, they have two A/V ports on the back - one for the ordinary Composite or S-video cable, the other for the proprietary (and very expensive) component cable. At least, the original DOL-001 version does. The later DOL-101 revision removes the port and the associated connections, as nobody paid the absurd price for the cable.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116187 on: August 30, 2019, 03:27:41 am »

Human civilization will collapse soon because we trapped ourselves in an unsustainable system that is slowly killing us


The best part is how people that refuse to admit how fast everything could go downhill, are generally the same that are shitting their pants when there is like 5% more immigration than an average year. They're willing to go full hunger games if there is a  handful of brown people too many, yet they think our society is capable of mastering a real catastrophe, just fucking lol.

Reelya

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116188 on: August 30, 2019, 04:29:15 am »

One step up from that is COMPOSITE video - the yellow plug. This is superior in every way to RF, due to having a cleaner signal to begin with and because the connector is much better. You still get a lot of artifacting and color bleed, so it isn't perfect. This is the "default" connection in the modern era.

The other day I learnt via a video, that a lot of really old CGA (4 color) games were in fact supposed to play through the CGA composite out, which color-blending and gave effectively 16 colors on the screen. later cards lacked the composite out, so you had to run CGA games through RGB out, which doesn't allow the color-blending effect. Things you learn.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niKblgZupOc

wierd

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #116189 on: August 30, 2019, 04:43:07 am »

It was more an artifact of the CGA refresh signal, with interleaving causing blended colors-- but yes. :P

it was a voodoo dark art.

Then came EGA, and the art died.
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