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Author Topic: Things that made you sad today thread.  (Read 8471704 times)

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121470 on: January 27, 2023, 02:21:24 am »

Except Kiwi Farms isn't a caricature. One of the more famous recent incidents was a targeted harassment campaign against the streamer Keffals for pretty much the sole reason she's a trans woman. They're a bunch of chuds, to put it mildly.
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I may have wasted all those years
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King Zultan

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121471 on: January 27, 2023, 04:31:38 am »

But how can they call themselves Kiwi Farms if they have nothing to do with Kiwis?
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Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121472 on: January 27, 2023, 07:34:14 am »

Originates from 4chan, became CWCki Forums, mutated into Kiwi Farms.
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121473 on: January 27, 2023, 09:39:52 am »

Caveat: I have not been in any kind of physical altercation since 2007. I am, however, extremely familiar with violence. I hold instructor ranks in three separate but very similar martial arts, Ninjutsu, Savate, and Muay Thai. I can't say anything about the UK or their laws, but here's my take on my experiences with the US law.

As it has been explained to me by a few lawyers, a bunch of police officers, and all of my coaches/teachers: it's not proportional force that law enforcement is looking at in cases of self defense, it's escalation of force. If I put down a violent threat, end the fight, and then immediately call the cops (and wait around to give a statement,) without going out of my way to cause extra damage to my assailant, they're not going to prosecute me.

I used to barfight frequently. I have always been told that the "appropriate measure of force," was "enough to stop someone from hurting you or others and no more." I have been in a couple of fights where a guy just refused to stop getting up until I absolutely wrecked his shit, and have never even seen the inside of a jail.

If, hypothetically, I were to kick someone, then jump on them and ground and pound them after they stopped fighting back, then I would definitely be a candidate for jail, deservedly so. Especially if I were to GnP after they were unable to defend themselves, like unconscious.
There was a case in the UK that demonstrated this, where the defendant had actually started the fight, but the judge cautioned that being the aggressor does not disqualify the use of self-defence as a legal defence in UK law, provided it was plausible that the aggressor was not the one continuously being aggressive/disproportionate in escalation. If you go after someone looking to start a quarrel, but they pull out a knife and start trying to kill you, you may genuinely be in a position where you cannot escape or survive except by using proportionate force yourself - even though it is your fault the confrontation started to begin with. The prosecution will then point to any evidence (e.g. if you showed up trying to start a fight and were carrying a weapon, that shows intent to escalate from the start) to try and prove you had aggressive motives to begin with. But even showing up to start a fight with a weapon is not necesarily enough to rule out self defence:

11. ...Because the prosecution must prove his guilt, it's for the prosecution to prove that a defendant and this defendant in particular was not acting in lawful self defence. It's not for him to establish that he was. You must consider the matter of self defence in the light of the situation which the defendant honestly believed he faced.

14. What the defendant says is, he is confronted by Alex Doyle who is squaring up to him, he's throwing punches and he's returning. Then to Alex Doyle's rear are a number of other people, he and his Wythenshawe friends are out-numbered, he panics, he produces the knife and therefore it's reasonable force. All right? So you see the two stages. Was he acting and did he honestly believe he had to use reasonable force to defend himself and secondly, was the force he actually used reasonable. All right?

15. Of course the prosecution say that here it wasn't reasonable. The prosecution go further. They say it wasn't self-defence. It wasn't Alex Doyle who was the aggressor, it wasn't his friends who were the aggressor, it was the defendant who was the aggressor, he was out for trouble. That's what the prosecution say. Well, if that is the position and you are sure of it, well self-defence doesn't come into it you may think, but if you do consider that the defendant may have been acting in self defence because he honestly believed that he was under threat, you have then got to go on and ask yourself the question, was the force reasonable."

19. We would agree that the mere fact that a defendant goes somewhere in order to exact revenge from the victim does not of itself rule out the possibility that in any violence that ensues self-defence is necessarily not available as a defence. It must depend on the circumstances. It is common ground that a person only acts in self-defence if in all the circumstances he honestly believes that it is necessary for him to defend himself and if the amount of force that he uses is reasonable.
t. Royal Courts of Justice, Strand London

As in this case, wherein a chap armed with a knife started a fist fight with the unarmed deceased with revenge as his motive, but pulled out his knife and fatally wounded the deceased after the fight escalated and started involving more men, with the accused being outnumbered when he pulled out the knife. Notably the accused was still convicted of murder, but that was because the jury ruled that the use of force was totally out of proportion to what was actually happening (the guy he killed wasn't making any verbal threats, his punches weren't even connecting) nor were any of the other men getting involved in the fight actually attacking the accused. But the use of weapon, the motive and being the instigator were not per se disqualifiers for the defence

The problem is that nobody will ever be able to prove that their defense was "proportional" unless they're done in worse first. So the batter will always be at risk of being charged with battery (lol) unless the knifer knifes him a proportional amount first. The victim ends up in a moral limbo where they have to care more about the person actively assaulting them and trying to hurt them than their own safety, which is a ridiculous requirement in an emergency. And since emergency is a requirement for self-defence, we end up with a self-defeating circular definition of when you are allowed to defend yourself.
This is true, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove you weren't proportional

It puts the victim at the mercy of the whims of the prosecution and judge and how keen they are on a sentence. At least in the UK they would have to go in front of a jury that might look at it with some common sense, but here in Sweden we don't have that. Which means it's entirely likely you'll be sentenced for murder for firing a hunting rifle at armed people breaking down your door in the middle of the night and shouting that they're going to kill you. Which, yes, is a real case which happened 5-10 years back.
Oh yeah we have that nonsense too where police warn people for not getting attacked first

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121474 on: January 28, 2023, 03:50:38 am »

EDIT: Actually I feel this could slightly too easily get argumentative. Still annoys me, but I don't want to risk it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 04:05:47 am by Great Order »
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121475 on: January 28, 2023, 04:13:41 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 06:49:29 pm by dragdeler »
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scriver

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121476 on: January 28, 2023, 08:03:35 am »

The problem is that nobody will ever be able to prove that their defense was "proportional" unless they're done in worse first. So the batter will always be at risk of being charged with battery (lol) unless the knifer knifes him a proportional amount first. The victim ends up in a moral limbo where they have to care more about the person actively assaulting them and trying to hurt them than their own safety, which is a ridiculous requirement in an emergency. And since emergency is a requirement for self-defence, we end up with a self-defeating circular definition of when you are allowed to defend yourself.
This is true, but the burden of proof is on the prosecution to prove you weren't proportional

Except it doesn't, because if your self defence is successful it prevents the things you are defending yourself from from happening. Any kind of hostile behaviour where the victim ends up on top can always be reportayed into the victim using more force than was necessary, since the attacker wasn't able to follow through. This is the problem by having victim's right to defend themselves hinge on using "proportional force".

It doesn't just disqualify ridiculous clear-cut claims such as "curbstomping in self-defence" and similar. If can be used to disqualify people from having used any kind of violence at all unless the attacker have already done worse.

In the case of the Swede shooting the intruders through the door his self-defence claims was disqualified because "he should have fired a warning shot to let them know he had a gun" first. It didn't matter that they had a history of threatening  him to his life (he was in a relationship with their mother and they disapproved of him dating her), it didn't matter that he was a middle-aged (50-something iirc) man and they were two 20-something men in the prime of their lives, it didn't matter that it was late at night, it didn't matter that he was terrified because they were breaking down his front door intent on murdering him. He should have somehow had the wherewithal to issue a warning first (which, had he done so, would probably have been used to argue that he wasn't all that terrified anyway since he didn't immediately fire a panicked shot at the door) and let them now he had a gun. Because the "proportional violence" condition places the responsibility of considering the life and limb of the attacker on the victim before the victim's own safety.

And again. If he would've missed the shot, or fired the necessary warning shot, and they ran away and he shot at them as they were fleeing, then I too think it wouldn't count as self-defence. But that wasn't the case.

Anyway, @Great Order, I want to add that I agree with the entire rest of your original post, about the foolishness of comments like that and the idea of everyone being armed at all times and good guys with guns getting gangs got and all that. That's not something I find defensible or copyable and I am glad that we don't have that kind of society here. I just get annoyed at the ephemeral "proportional force" idea.
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dragdeler

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121477 on: January 28, 2023, 09:52:25 am »

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2023, 06:49:15 pm by dragdeler »
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Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121478 on: January 28, 2023, 02:08:12 pm »

In the case of the Swede shooting the intruders through the door his self-defence claims was disqualified because "he should have fired a warning shot to let them know he had a gun" first. It didn't matter that they had a history of threatening  him to his life (he was in a relationship with their mother and they disapproved of him dating her), it didn't matter that he was a middle-aged (50-something iirc) man and they were two 20-something men in the prime of their lives, it didn't matter that it was late at night, it didn't matter that he was terrified because they were breaking down his front door intent on murdering him. He should have somehow had the wherewithal to issue a warning first (which, had he done so, would probably have been used to argue that he wasn't all that terrified anyway since he didn't immediately fire a panicked shot at the door) and let them now he had a gun. Because the "proportional violence" condition places the responsibility of considering the life and limb of the attacker on the victim before the victim's own safety.

And again. If he would've missed the shot, or fired the necessary warning shot, and they ran away and he shot at them as they were fleeing, then I too think it wouldn't count as self-defence. But that wasn't the case.
I can see that yeah. Ultimately it ends up down to the discretion of the judge or the jury in most cases. E.g. "you should have fired a warning shot" might fly in Sweden but than I've seen American court cases where they used firing a warning shot as proof the defendant did not fear for their life ymmv

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121479 on: January 28, 2023, 08:20:20 pm »

Had a dream that our cat that was put to sleep three years ago came back to us. We were really confused about how given the whole "put to sleep" thing, but really happy to have her back.

Now I'm sad.

EDIT: Yeah, never really recovered from that. I've had the blues all day. I've been feeling bored, lonely, tired, and a bit sad throughout.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2023, 04:23:26 pm by Great Order »
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

MrRoboto75

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121480 on: January 29, 2023, 06:42:09 pm »

I swear the only reason anyone ever stops ignoring my existence is either to insult me or beg me for money.  It is never a good thing.

So done with this rotten world; it hardly even wants me yet won't just let me leave.
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Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121481 on: February 01, 2023, 09:53:31 am »

University's being a goddamn mess about my transcript.

I didn't finish my course there, so I can't access the transcript online (Why not?), instead I have to send off a form (Which was a bit of a mess itself, because I'd sent an email asking and had to then have them ring me, then they sent an email they could have sent anyway). I sent it off in December and didn't even receive an acknowledgement. I sent an email about two weeks ago asking about it because I thought "Well, it's been the Christmas holidays so they get extra time". All I got was an email with a link to a form for a hard copy, which I'm not even sure I can get AND I'd have to pay for. I replied saying that I'd sent off a form for an electronic copy of it and I was wanting to know about that. No reply.

I've sent another email because they don't have a bloody phone number to contact them basically, in much politer terms, to get their backsides into gear because I need the transcript to apply for university this year. If they haven't replied by Friday I'll be navigating my way through the student admin number to see if they can get me to the correct office so I can give them some shit for being so damn bad at this.
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

Great Order

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121482 on: February 03, 2023, 07:58:00 am »

You know, I don't know why I keep going back to Reddit. Go on there and there's just people debating whether or not I exist and whether I'm a predator, before in the next breath saying that trans people are untouchable on the site.

It doesn't do my mental health any good.
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I may have wasted all those years
They're not worth their time in tears
I may have spent too long in darkness
In the warmth of my fears

Loud Whispers

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121483 on: February 03, 2023, 08:57:00 am »

Why would you subject yourself to the internet equivalent of fly regurgitation

scriver

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Re: Things that made you sad today thread.
« Reply #121484 on: February 03, 2023, 09:39:30 am »

I enjoy reading DMAcademy, even though I'm only running games in my imagination. It's mainly a place of constructiveness and helpfulness, and only the occasional bouts of redditisms.

Other than that I browse gossip reddits like HobbyDrama and rpghorrorstories because I love gossip, but I don't participate there myself. HobbyDrama seems generally decent and rpghirrorstories posters are a bit too judgemental for my tastes, but I think they're still probably better than other gossip/cringe reddits which has appeared a lot harsher to me the few times I've browsed them. It's probably the natural effect of going to a place that's basically based on a "hear stories and judge strangers" concept.

I'm subscribed to a bunch of dnd/rpg hubs but I don't really go there, though I enjoy looking at artwork from them the few times I'm on the start page, they all seem like circlewank central. Been browsing dnd ones more with the OCL 1.1 stuff the past month I guess.

And then lastly I at some point got subscribed to r/ornithology by mistake, since it's really not an interest of mine. But I've forelet unsubscribing again since it's a pretty low pace reddit and it's kinda nice seeing the occasional bird topic or picture in the flow.

Anyway what I actually was going to say before this turned into another list (I am not socially understimulated at all or anything) is that even from somebody who doesn't go too much on reddit, you really have to cultivate your reddit experience I'd you don't want to end up with a raincloud of negative energy over your head when you leave it, so much of it just casually loaded with anger and bitterness (and I have those in spades of my own, I don't need other people contributing theirs). Getting into arguments can be addictive when you see that sweet recognition counter of other people thinking you are right go up, but it still makes me feel anxious and stressed out at the end of the day. Gotta trim those arguments and places away. Gotta grow our gardens.

Edit: Bonus – Today's highlight from r/ornithology: A bird conservation charity said it had been locked out of its Twitter account for eight days after posting several tweets about woodcock
« Last Edit: February 03, 2023, 09:51:24 am by scriver »
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